Women in Technology: Why Community Is Essential for Progress

Sophie White: Hello everyone and welcome to the EDUCAUSE Shop Talk podcast. I'm Sophie White. I am a content marketing and program manager for EDUCAUSE, and I'll be the host for today's discussion. I am really excited to have with me here three of our leaders of the EDUCAUSE Women in IT Community Group today. I'll turn it over to them in just a minute, and I'm really excited to chat about different challenges, opportunities, things that they're working on related to our community and supporting women in it. But first I'll give you all just a brief overview of the group and who we have with us as guests today. So the Women in IT Community Group is a networking, learning, empowering, and sharing group amongst female identified trans, non-binary and allied members of EDUCAUSE. Our goals include creating opportunities to discuss and address topics important to IT professionals who are within the identities mentioned above to disseminate effective practices in the recruitment, retention, and advancement of women in higher education IT, and to provide a supportive and safe environment for group participants to learn as well as share their expertise projects and participate practice presenting in various modalities.

I misread participate in practice, so I could use some practice on that too. The co-leaders of this group strive for this to be a welcoming, inclusive, and accepting venue for collegiality, learning and networking to further these goals the group meets throughout the year virtually and at the EDUCAUSE annual conference highlighting a variety of industry best practices. Thank you all for being here. So today we have Tonya, Amy, and Robyn, and I'll introduce them in just a minute. Holly unfortunately could not make it Holly Heller Ross, but she is the fourth co-leader of this group and is also really involved in all of the programming that women in IT does. So first I'll introduce Tonya. Tonya Bennett is director of Educational Technology at Penn Vet and is a dedicated and innovative leader in educational technology. She spearheads strategic initiatives that leverage technology to enhance education. Tonya is also passionate about building professional communities, having chaired the Young Professionals Advisory Committee and now serving as a lead on the Women in IT Community Group.

I also support the Young Professionals Advisory Committee and I really appreciate all your service to them too. The YPAC. Thanks, Tonya. Amy Shaiman is up next. Amy is the Director of Technology for Miami University's division of University Advancement, currently focused on implementing a new system and CRM for advancement. She is passionate about facilitating access to information which empowers people, their learning, their work, and their engagement with the world around them. Prior to her career in technology, Amy worked as an educator, clergy person and leader in community organizations and served in the US Navy. Amy, every time I've read your bio, I'm just amazed by the variety of things that you've done in your life. So thank you for being here with us. And Robyn Marquez Wood serves as the assistant director for the Office of Technology at Texas Tech University Health Science Center's School of Pharmacy, where she combines her expertise in education and technology to drive innovation in healthcare higher education. She's a selected member of the Dean's Pioneer Pathway task force, which in 2024 launched Texas's first distance-based PharmD program. Passionate about creating meaningful engagement and amplifying others' voices, Robyn is deeply committed to advancing excellence and innovation in higher education. Thanks for being here, Robyn.

So let's get started. I would love to hear from all of you just what sparked your desire to co-lead the Women in IT group for EDUCAUSE? You're all very busy professionals involved with a lot of things, so why are you excited to support this community?

Amy Shaiman: I'll go ahead and start. I think that I learned about WIT just before the lockdown phase of the pandemic back in the 2020 time and was already exploring the group. And then in the beginning of that time with all the uncertainty and the need I felt for connecting with people and connecting people professionally, I started attending more of the meetings then and really appreciated the collegiality, the welcoming venue and the learning that was going on because there was a very deliberate approach by the co-chairs at that time and the way I saw it as an opportunity to both do professional development and really to just kind of be there for each other in the state that we were all in at that particular point in time. And there was a lot of effort to really embrace the many hats that lots of professionals wear, but particularly professional women wear and be there. And so benefiting from the community made me want to give back to the community.

Robyn Wood: Yeah, I think for me, actually my engagement started with AEW here in my local chapter. I actually was a scholarship recipient. I had never really been that involved, but I ended up being a program chair for that and participating with the AEW. So with that, it actually led me into wanting to still continue that on. And so just by starting with getting involved with EDUCAUSE and hearing about these community groups, I was like, wow. And they have all these different programs. And so for me that's really kind of what sparked that. I wanted to really contribute that way. And sadly the AEW and the local chapter because of covid wasn't able to carry on. So it was like I found my other place. And so I'm really grateful for that in these women here.

Tonya Bennett: I feel like I am always in a perpetual state of looking for somewhere to serve or some community to pour into. I think that's just how I'm wired, and with EDUCCAUSE, since they have so many communities, I get to pick what community I want to pour into or be a part of. And to be quite honest, Robyn actually invited me on to start doing WIT stuff, and I just love Robyn and I'm like, sure, wherever you go, I'll go and this is great. So, Robyn actually told me about it, and I decided to help with this community and so that's why I'm here and that's why I chose WIT.

Sophie White: I love that something I've heard talked about a lot with the young professionals is just how powerful it can be when someone suggests an opportunity like that to you that says, I thought of you, you'd be great for this. That can be so great for any communities that are marginalized in any way or just are looking for more ways to build their professional network. So I love that story about you bringing each other in and now you're doing such great work for the community.

Robyn Wood: Yeah, I admire these women so much. I gained so much for them. And I feel like for what we're trying to accomplish with the group, we all have our different strengths. But going with Tonya too, I just saw that I was like, wow, there's so many things I know that I've seen what she's done with young professionals. I was like, we want that for the women in tech. And sure enough, just having her shortly on board, but then Amy is our glue, keeps us together, keeps things going so smoothly, I'm so thankful for her for our conferences and the engagement we were able to have just these past couple of years. They're just incredible women and I'm so lucky that I get to do some good work with them.

Sophie White: I love that. Amy, I'm curious about something you just said which was related to women wearing a lot of hats in higher education. Can you talk more about that? So what kind of hats are you seeing? Why are women maybe more likely to be wearing a lot of these hats and how do you address that?

Amy Shaiman: I think societally women wear a lot of hats, right? Part of it depends on what season of life we're in or what season of life we might be in. And yet I, as an older parent of a younger child, sometimes the season and the life don't match quite the way they do for others. But women wear so many hats societally. And then I think in higher ed, I think there's a lot of desire to mentor, whether it's mentoring horizontally, it's not necessarily a hierarchical mentoring, but to look out for each other, to work with our teams and to do what is best for them and look out for who could use a hand up. And also who, if I'm being hierarchical for a moment, who above us might need also a hand or might need some prompting and to figure out the politics of when can I do that and when can I not do that?

And one of the things I appreciate about this community is that there have been times when I have felt like I just need to talk through a scenario with someone and someone who's not necessarily embedded in the local whatever is going on, but can give me a little bit of an outsider viewpoint on things. So I think part of the hat is taking care of each other in the workplace and taking care of our teams. Part of the hat is looking out for ourselves and what do we need to do to professionally develop and professionally develop, not because we should necessarily always chase the next rung on the ladder, although we might want to do that, but also just to stay professionally engaged, especially in times that feel uncertain and feel challenging.

Some of us who live in states where a lot of stuff is not in our own control, at least having some choice to say, okay, all this chaos is happening. Let me put on a hat of professional development and do that. So maybe I'm answering your question, so maybe I'm not. But I think that the varying pieces that can happen in this group, and I appreciate the generational, the different generations to use more grammatically correct term, the different generations that we have within the group and the ability to help each other and that there isn't a sense of different age groups can only speak to their own age group that we really do and benefit from one another regardless of a lot of labels and hopefully age as well as others.

Sophie White: Yeah, I think that's so important. And I love that all of these communities do represent the different age groups and different types of institutions, states, all of that, because I think that that type of diversity really does make all of us stronger. And I know even before we started recording this conversation, we were talking about that there is a lot of chaos in the world right now we're recording this April 7th, 2025. Everything's changing daily. But how important it's to have a community to lean on during those times that you can say we're all feeling this together, checking in on each other, trying to figure out what can control what we can't control and make that distinction together. I think community is just so essential during these wild times, whether it's the pandemic or all of the global uncertainty that we're seeing now. I don't know, and sorry if anyone sees my cat behind me, she's been going between napping and then running around, but this is Vega Rudy, so another woman in it. Take them all I know Tonya or Robyn, I don't know if you want to add anything to that. I'm also curious about if there are any memorable discussions you all have had in women in IT lately that you want to chat about during our talk today.

Robyn Wood: Yeah, absolutely. I will go ahead and say last month she's not here, but our fantastic Holly Heller led a group of panelists of our different wit, CG that started their own WIT CG at their own institution. And it was so great to hear about all the groundbreaking things that they are doing there. But I will say one of the messages there, which there were many messages there shared that stuck to my heart and really speaks to even what we're doing here even in these uncertain times. And it was something that Dr. Alban Hill said from Auburn University in WIT CGs, we are set for intentionality and engagement and we're that for everybody. And I really liked hearing that message and I really liked just hearing all the different things that we do with our cross. Either it's cross collaboration within EDUCAUSE or within our campuses, it's our leadership pathways that we take. It's just the different mentorship and even I would say job visibility for us to amplify not only just who we are as professionals but also our careers and just highlighting those things. And so that's something I definitely would love to add and just say what we've done recently. We've got a lot of other things coming up. But yeah, that's the first thing that strikes out to me.

Tonya Bennett: I think one thing that jumps out to me are just our community conversations and just how we can come together and talk about things that are on our minds. Because given everything that's going on, there's a lot of things on our minds and we don't necessarily always have a place to unpack that or a place to park it or a place to just say, oh, I thought it was just me. You're feeling that too, or are you experiencing something similar? And I think there's a real value and I think in that, and I think that that's what community is finding those places, finding those people, having that outlet and being able to share with each other and care for each other in places where maybe we are not allowed to do that or maybe figure it out on your own time or just hold up a brave face and keep trudging on when really things are melting down and falling down around us. And I really appreciate the community and how open everyone is. We share with each other and that is so important for supporting each other through it all. And so I think that it's a very good part of the WIT CG, and I'm happy to be a part of that.

Sophie White: Yeah, I'm always amazed by how powerful just empathy can be. I feel like I did a deep dive into all of Brene Brown's work before she came to our annual conference in San Antonio this year, and it just keeps surfacing to the back of my mind even more than ever now. I think about empathy as an antidote to shame and how it really does bring all of us together and that we are people first and it professionals second in a lot of cases. And those things are often combined, but it's just so helpful to be able to see each other, especially in times like this.

Amy Shaiman: And one of the things that's been important to us and I think is something we've inherited from the women who led ahead of us, and this group has a history that goes back almost twenty years I learned we try to be responsive to what people want. So for example, at the annual conference last October, there were a number of women who put up on an idea board and then came and told us after the session, Hey, we really need a place to just process. We love that we have a topic, it's great, but sometimes I just need that listening ear, that place to unpack like Tonya said. And so we've added another conversation once a month to allow that and to facilitate that. And even if one of us isn't there leading it, that people can go out there and do it and be the supportive people for each other, not about any of us who are the leaders, it's about the group itself and what people need. So I didn't know that virtual conversation once a month in addition to our regular sessions,

Robyn Wood: Informal conversations was just one of those that huge part of what they were seeking. And we get so many different interesting things out of that too. Sometimes it is about uncertainty, uncertainty, but sometimes if we wouldn't have had that our asynchronous book club, we didn't know what to do with that. And the group really wanted to have that back, but how do we manage it? And that's where we got Christie that stepped up to be willing to do that. And I think just being able to see our different unique in perspectives and without having it to be so rigid and hearing people's just thoughts and feelings. There's so many different things are going on in the world, but again, going back to intentionality and engagement, if we're here for each other, then I genuinely believe my heart of hearts will get through it and with strong leaders within our CG itself and amplifying what they're doing and then these fantastic women and Sophie's the Kelly's of the world, we'll get through it for sure. And I do love and appreciate what Amy was able to do. That was her wonderful idea. We've been very data-driven in what we've created in our programs for this next coming up year, and it's been well received. We get quite a few participants at everything. So I appreciate the women that show up and support each other. It's for them, it's not for us.

Sophie White: Absolutely. It's amazing what data can do. That's a whole other EDUCAUSE discussion, but I was moderating a webinar this morning about data empowered institutions and it is so powerful. I'm curious, Amy, you mentioned this, the group had been around for twenty years and obviously you all haven't been part of it for that long, but how have you seen trends in how women show up in the higher education workforce change since you've been doing this work?

Amy Shaiman: I think not necessarily tied to higher ed, but I think it's present in higher ed as well, is that there was a time when being a professional woman didn't allow for much collegiality with one another because it was set up on kind of a competitive model, not necessarily more masculine model, but that's the metaphor that's coming to mind. And I think I've seen things evolve where there's a lot more willingness to share. And that's something that I think also is higher ed, very much the general approach of higher ed. If I'm struggling with how to put it in a system and how to get the data that looks like this that we use for that to go into that spot over there, I know I can reach out. And it's even though might be a competitive institution in terms of what students attend that university, it's not like it's giving out the formula for a product that I'm going to ruin my IP.

It's really a lot more about collegiality. So I think that sometimes generational change and then the opportunities that exist for higher ed are really ripe for the taking. But from the first times that I remember being in the WIT meetings, they were always so welcoming and accepting. And that's something that I don't think is a big change even though I wasn't involved twenty years ago, but really reaching out for each other and so many women, whatever our particular communities are, we've all been there where someone has perhaps treated us in a way that we might not have been treated had our identities been different. And I think that being able to be supportive of each other is helpful.

Sophie White: Yeah, I think that's a really important point. I just had an example in my head and now I lost it. But yeah, I think that from what we're seeing in the ed, cause community, oh was I know what it was, higher ed, I've always so inspired by the collaboration because in some ways institutions could be competitive with each other for things like funding for students when we're talking about enrollment challenges and things like that. But this community is always so open to sharing ideas. We see that in our community groups. We see that our annual conference, that folks are willing to exchange their email addresses and mentor each other and be mentored. And that's something that I think even with all of the challenges going on right now, really inspires me. So I'm glad to see that you've seen that in this space specifically too. In terms of supporting women in it. I'm curious, I'm looking at some of the feedback that you all had from your group, and I love that it's such a collaborative group and that you take ideas from your members, but how do you see what you do in this group influencing larger institutional or higher education policies? Have you been able to take some of the learnings from the EDUCAUSE Women in IT group to influence work that you're doing at your individual institutions or even on a larger level from that?

Robyn Wood: Yeah, I'll go ahead and go. Yeah. So the WIT CG group, I think overall when I'm thinking about what it's provided for us and we're hoping as we are leaning in as professionals and whether we're doing that through our local communities, it doesn't have to even be at cg, it is, but it's visible leadership and innovation and changemaking. And we really just want to be there to support careers or support people's wellbeing and just making sure that we come with strength, empathy, and clarity. And those are really important things in leadership. So I think anything that we're doing, whether it's in the institution or whether you see us walking down the hall, you're going to see that we are so approachable. And yeah, I definitely would like to say Tonya Bennett, she is not a stranger. And when she's at conferences and things like that, I love her having that visibility and just seeing her interact and what she's been able to do in terms of different leadership. And since you are, you do great things at U Penn with the staff, I know you're already doing that. I don't know. What's your thoughts, Tonya?

Tonya Bennett: So thank you for the nod and the calling me out. I do chair the staff assembly at my current institution this year. And I think that what I get from wit and just serving on other cause committees and being in leadership is I get to practice my leadership skills. I get to hone them in, I get to stretch them. And what I really would like to offer to people who don't have a leadership position or something baked into their leadership is this is the way to get some leadership experience. This is the way to start to learn and hone these skills and really build them. And so my first gig at EDUCAUSE was being part of the young professionals and I learned a ton. I learned how to interact with executives like the president of VE cause and I learned how to make asks.

I learned how to make pitches. I learned how to advocate for myself and others. I just learned so many wonderful skills through leadership, volunteering. It definitely helped me have a package or a tool set to take back to my university. And now I am leading, I am chairing and we have events and we do some of the very similar things that we do at EDUCAUSE, but I had that experience already. So I came with a skillset that I built on my own for free. It didn't cost me anything. And so I think that that was very useful and very helpful and something that I got just from leadership.

Robyn Wood: I'll add one more thing too. I feel like Tonya, anybody that she meets, you feel like a leader and I think empowering, right? And that's the message that she gives. And so that's the other part I'd like to add. I think just on my perspective and getting to interact with you. And I'm very thankful for that.

Sophie White: Robyn, I feel like you're doing a great job of this example of how to build each other up. So thank you for doing this. I agree with you, Tonya is fantastic. It's done so much. I feel like this just exhibits how we can all support each other.

Robyn Wood: Yeah, I think so much more of like I see so much, even when we're at the conferences, when we see each other, when you read Amy's bio, it's incredible. It really is in Air Force community servant, there's just so much there. But also for the ones that feel like, and we do get these questions from young professionals mostly, but even people that are coming from the corporate world into higher ed, it's a big question, how do I lead within this group? Well, my thought is you're already a leader. Your voice already matters. Your perspective matters. Your presence has power here and what you do with that energy and what you do with that time. And if you do feel a little lost, we're going to help you out. I will let Amy go into some of the things that we've been able to do for other women within our cg, but if we're not here to empower each other, then it's definitely not the message within our cg. For sure.

Amy Shaiman: Yeah, we had a woman come to us three years ago maybe who said, Hey, I really, I'm writing a PhD dissertation, and I am studying women in higher ed and I'm studying this slice of women in higher ed. Do you mind if I post that on the connect board and let people be part of my research? And it turned out that the subjects that scholar ended up using were people who responded to that post on the wit CG space. And so last year, I think in March, I'm not remembering the month correctly, but she came and presented on her PhD, which was so great to hear the full circle. And even for those who weren't involved at the beginning of that circle, who may not have had the opportunity to be part of the research, to see that you can go from a germ of an idea and props to everybody who's out there getting a PhD and a terminal degree.

It is not easy work. And especially I am thinking of my friend Robyn. It's not easy to do and not easy to do with life and higher and full-time work and all the other ways that a lot of women do it. But to see that full circle opportunity, and one of the things that impressed me that is definitely a value we carry forward from the women who came before us as we stand on their shoulders, is that people who haven't presented, maybe we have some women out there who are watching this today, who have thrown in a presentation for the EDUCAUSE conference and are looking to speak at the EDUCAUSE conference and they want to practice it, come to us even if we don't have a spot open on the calendar, there's nothing that says that we can't find another day to throw another meeting out there and publicize it to the community. There are plenty of women who want to participate, who always have a conflict at our meeting time. This is life and okay, practice it if you want tips on, well, how do you put it together or how do I put it together? Or you know what, I'm good on what I want to try, but I want for something super different. Can I practice? Yes, please, please come to us, let us help each other and be there for each other. And like Tonya said, to grow those skills.

Sophie White: I think that's a testament to the community that you've built too, because there are a lot of situations where many of us might not feel very comfortable presenting if we are presenting to a Stonewall. But if you have a community who's supportive and will give you gentle feedback, but for all of the right reasons for constructive criticism, that's the type of place that you can really grow and learn from.

Robyn Wood: Yeah, I want to highlight that again since this is on our podcast. If anybody is wanting to just get it doesn't matter. You could be a convener. You can facilitate the meetings. We are. It's not just about our presence being there, it's for the community. So any one of us. So it's very important for us been and that I guess when we were talking about programming and what we are looking forward to in the next year, that's something we are being very intentional about. And hopefully you've noticed our presence in some of the ways that we are out there in requesting that information along with highlighting opportunities. So maybe they don't want to do that, but within EDUCAUSE because EDUCAUSE provides many opportunities that need to be demystified a little bit. As much as y'all do a great job of vocalizing that, I think hopefully our cgs, we do a good job of helping get that message out and ask for that support and provide those professional opportunities as well.

Amy Shaiman: Yeah, like Robyn earlier this year facilitated a conversation on mentoring and specifically the mentoring program that EDUCAUSE offers. And so many of us out there think that, oh, mentoring always has to be hierarchical and specifically having women talk about their very much non-hierarchical mentoring and how important that is and how valuable that is. And we all learn from each other.

Sophie White: Yeah, I agree. I've been having one thought in my head that I'm curious what you all think about Robyn. You were talking about kind of building up and elevating voices of women in technology before. And I feel like something I've always struggled with is this balance between being seen as a leader and how that can be inspiring to folks. And then this idea of tokenism that we've run into before too. So I know I've come from the corporate side and there are situations where I was like, am I on this panel because I am a woman or because they care about my ideas? And sometimes it's a tough balance to figure that out, but at the same time, it can be so valuable for folks who are just coming up in the industry to see women leaders and aspire to be that way because they can relate just when it's March Madness is just wrapping up and I went to this sports bar in Denver this weekend that is only displaying women's sports. It's brand new and they play women's sports all day. It's so much fun. But just being able to walk in somewhere and see, oh, every single TV is just playing women's sports was so inspiring me. So I guess how do you navigate that conflict between what is a genuine engagement opportunity for us to build women up and be inspiring and then what is us being maybe used because of our identity and how do you navigate that situation?

Robyn Wood: Well, I'm just going to go ahead and go back to our presence and our power is important. I feel like if anytime there's a chance to engage or to see who we are as working professionals, I think take that chance, take that opportunity. I feel like women, we struggle a lot with imposter syndrome. I struggle a lot or more in the past because dare I say, I'm at a certain age where I feel like that's become less of a thing. But you're right, I will say there are things that I wouldn't probably participate in if it didn't speak to my values. So we're going to go back to Brene Brown, which by the way, we know she called herself a scrappy Texan. And I'm a scrappy west Texan. So though I am super, we do things where I'm super kind. I do have my boundaries and I do know where my values are, and integrity is one of the biggest things.

So my top value. And so that's where I just have to make sure I tow the line. But then you have these amazing people in your life like Atonia and Amy to say, Hey, if I've got that little voice in my head, is this for me? But one thing I will say rarely, between talking to any of these two wonderful ladies or any of the other mentors or leaders that I know or colleagues or peer support, rarely would they tell me to miss out on something. And so that's why I know I got my gut check and my balance is just to have those people in your life that are important and they don't have to be in your field and your area. They know who you are, true to your heart. But yeah, that's how I navigate it.

Tonya Bennett: I think that's a good question. And it's tricky, right? Because me, I also want to know motives and I'm like, is this performative and my ear because, but at the end of the day, I got to seat at a table and I got to seat at a table that other people are not at. And so if I'm in that seat at that table, oh, you better believe I'm going to use my voice and I'm going to own that seat. So while you may have thought that I was there for show, oh no, there will be a show, but I'm here and I am going to do it for the people who are not in the room and the people who can, they look like me. So as someone said, if you can see it, you can be it. So yes, if I have to be the only, which sometimes and a lot of time I am, I'm the only everything.

And guess what? I'm okay with that. And even if it was done for the wrong reason, I'm still there. Hopefully maybe I get through to someone or maybe I change or sway someone's way of thinking or give them a new perspective or make them or humanize the experience in general. So for sure, when I get a seat at a table, even though it may not be of genuinely offered, I'm still there. And because I'm still going to show up and I'm still going to show out and represent, and it's just how I approach it. So yeah,

Robyn Wood: It's something other, just one more thing I want to even add, just between even just this group and I see it with all women leaders is that Tonya had spoke about this last time, is speaking on people's names when they're not in the room always being positive, always providing those opportunities. So I would even say even if we are presenting on something that is not, maybe we can't always know what people's intentions are, but it gives us a chance to network and provide and open those doors for others to serve. And what I find or what I've seen between even Amy and Tonya and Sophie and the world, the Sophies of the world, is that every time we're there, we do, and then we get to share that with other people and we get to create those strong networks to where's like, huh, we got to bring them back. Or hey, maybe they know somebody for this. And it's been incredible to see the way that those things work out.

Sophie White: I got actual chills when you all were talking. That was just so powerful to hear Tonya just, I loved your response to it doesn't matter. I'm going to show up anyway and represent. And I think that's just such a really powerful and brave way to think about this question. Yeah, thanks for being a leader. She's incredible. Thank you. Very lucky. Have her

Tonya Bennett: Not always easy, but I have to.

Sophie White: No, you make it look easy, but there's so much going on behind the scenes that we will all never know about. So, thank you, Tonya.

Robyn Wood: I would even go ahead and say, if we thought about if you wouldn't have went to so many of those opportunities, how many missed opportunities would you have possibly had? And so that's the other thing, right? So had Tonya always, or even or any of us said, no, we're not going to go. We might've missed out on something that could have has led us to where we're at in front of amazing Sophie today. So would've said we were doing a podcast, me and Tonya have talked and Amy have all talked about this. We'd be like, what are you talking about? That's not happening. And that's not me.

Sophie White: No. Oh, sorry Amy. Go ahead.

Amy Shaiman: No, I was going to say that I think in life it's so hard to balance all the competing things and when to say yes and when to say yes and or yes, but, and when to, like Robyn was saying, share an opportunity with somebody else. And I think part of what we want to open to the community is to hear from the members of the wit cg, either in an open space or via email or via private message in the EDCAUSE Connect space to say, Hey, Amy, Robyn, Tonya, I'm open for X opportunity. So if you hear of that, or if you meet a speaker who's looking for someone to do this or that, we can't always know somebody to make that connection, but maybe there's a way for us to continue to enable and empower others to have the opportunities that some of us may or may not have the time for, but can enable for others. So that I think is another place where we haven't necessarily intentionally taken the group, but something that's organically happened that I think we could see if people have that interest.

Sophie White: Yeah, and I also love what you said, what you all were talking about earlier in terms of mentorship but also having someone who knows you and can kind of gut check you on opportunities. Robyn, you were mentioning that, but something that stuck out to me about Brene Brown's talk too is I think she also an additional to calling herself a scrappy Texan. She talked about some people who are chameleons and kind, this idea that you can shapeshift depending on whatever opportunity is available, which isn't in line with your integrity and why it's so important to make sure that you're kind of checking these things with yourself and with other people. So having a professional network who knows, oh, I'm not really sure about this opportunity. Should I take it or not? It's so powerful to be able to have that network to run ideas by and make sure that you can have those honest conversations too.