Inside the 2025 EDUCAUSE Horizon Report Teaching and Learning Edition

Sophie White: Hello everyone and welcome to EDUCAUSE Shop Talk. I'm Sophie White. I am a content marketing and program manager with EDUCAUSE, and I'm one of the hosts for today's show.

Jenay Robert: And I'm Jenay Robert. I'm a senior researcher at EDUCAUSE, and I'm your other host.

Sophie White: Great. So we are really excited to be talking today about what is one of my favorite reports that we do every year at EDUCAUSE, which is the Horizon Report on teaching and learning. We have three special guests with us today. So we'll just start. I'll introduce all of our guests and then we will dive into it. So first we have Joanne Struch, sorry for mispronouncing your name. Joanne is the chair in the school of continuing education at Red River College Polytechnic and academic writing instructor at the University of Winnipeg in Winnipeg, Canada. With over twenty years of experience in higher education, teaching and administration, she's committed to relevant, current and student focused design and delivery of educational programming. Joanne holds a PhD in education from the University of Manitoba, an MA in English literature from McMaster University. This is her second year as a member of the EDUCAUSE Horizon Report teaching and Learning edition advisory panel.

So Joanne was a really essential part in putting together the Horizon Report this year. And I also have a master's in English literature, so we can talk about that later and maybe go through some favorite books if we had time. Next we have Nicole Muscanell. Nicole is a researcher at EDUCAUSE. She holds a PhD in social psychology and has more than a decade of experience in higher education, including roles in research institution and academic advising. Her recent work explores faculty and student technology use workforce challenges, analytics and emerging trends, shaping teaching, learning, cybersecurity and privacy in higher education. Thanks for being with us, Nicole. Yeah, thanks for having me. And then last but not least, we have Kathe Pelletier. Dr. Kathe Pelletier has spent the last twenty-five years in higher education innovation of some form or another. Kathe's entry point into higher ed was an adult serving institution that was fully online.

And most of her work since then has been oriented around combining evidence-based practice with innovative delivery models. In the strategic application of technology and data, she has held many roles in different areas including advising, curriculum and instructional design, competency-based education and academic support. Kathe is currently the senior director of community programs at EDUCAUSE. Thanks Kathe for being with us. Heck yeah, this is going to be fun. Great. All right, well let's dive in. So we are recording this May 1st, 2025. I'm just adding that because I think this year's Horizon Report, I was reading the trends, the key technologies and practices and the scenarios, which are kind of the three sections that we break this report into. And thinking about the Horizon Report in terms of the state of global affairs, there is a lot changing rapidly in the world right now. And I think as we're thinking about these various trends and how they apply to education, that's kind of a layer that feels like it's overlaid on top of all of it. I'm curious, do you all want to start by maybe a finding that you thought was most interesting or surprising based on your work in the Horizon Report or what do you want to dive in and talk about?

Kathe Pelletier: I'll dive in. So coming from a background that has included pedagogy and instructional design and just kind of generally teaching and learning, I was really fascinated about the trend related to students' ways of cognition changing and how it's not just students have been exposed to technology before and so we need to teach differently, but literally brains are changing with prolonged exposure to different types of technologies. And I think that that is just fascinating to think about both the possibilities. And one of the comments in the report was related to shortened attention spans and potential drawbacks to this ongoing exposure and consumption of technology. And so that just really piqued my interest and seems like it has a lot of really critical implications.

Jenay Robert: I hope readers of the Horizon Report can see themselves in that trend too. I mean, I think many of us have had access to technology. I mean for me, we got our first computer when I was in high school as a family. So I think some of us younger than others have had access to technology but are part of this trend as well. I think that's really important because there is a tendency to talk about blaming students really for this change. And it's all of us as a society. I mean, I'm not going to ask this question and now anybody, but I wonder how many of the five of us have already looked at our email in the first four minutes of recording here? I've done it, I did it. I looked at my email, but then I came back. But I mean that's so common. We even consent it in our colleagues in meetings that they're multitasking, we know and we don't even get mad anymore. So yeah, I hope that we can see ourselves in that and have a bit of empathy and think about systems that need to change as opposed to putting blame on individuals.

Kathe Pelletier: For sure. And just one comment from me on that and then I would happily invite others jump in. I think I appreciate how you articulated that it isn't about, because it isn't about blaming, it's just like the fact is our brains are changing, but bringing ourselves into that too can both create empathy but also feed that creativity of how do I want to learn and how do I like to consume information? And is that different than when I was in school twenty-five years ago or however long ago it was? Yeah. So thank you for raising that. Jenay, and I have not checked my email, but I know as a parent when I am trying to teach my kids good phone, healthy phone and digital device usage, I'm scrolling my phone while I'm saying, oh, your time's up. You need to put your phone down.

Joanne Struch: Yeah, yeah, I agree with everything and I really appreciate the way that both of you have articulated those things. I was going to say that I really thought that the mention of AI or not just mention the large part of the report that does mention AI was something that I could comment on. I feel like maybe we'll talk about that at some point. But the other thing that I found surprising, and maybe just because I hadn't thought about it in this way and certainly throughout the discussions with the panel, was the poly crises, the idea that poly crises are on the rise. And I was thinking about that a bit more mostly because I hadn't really thought of poly crises. I feel like we're in a crisis individually, there's multiple things that happen. I feel like a major crisis over the last five-ish years had been COVID-19.

And I think that some of us are thinking, okay, how are we now reacting to what happened during that time? And Kathe, you mentioned discussions with your children. I have those too. I think about how they learned during that time and how they're now going to learn and how they will be learning as they're moving into high school and then higher education and how that will affect them. And I also think that the concept of poly crises certainly weighs on my mind daily, that we're bombarded with news daily about things that are happening in our neighborhoods, in our communities, outside of our communities internationally. And it's almost impossible to not ignore them. We can't ignore them. And it kind of speaks to also that change in cognition that you were mentioning with the technology because when I was young, we didn't have that constant bombardment of information and knowledge about the world, rightly or wrongly.

But we didn't have that. And I think that does change the way that we necessarily need to teach, the way that we need to talk about how we develop our programs, how we think about our institutions and the wellbeing of our students and instructors and everyone else in our institutions. So that concept of poly crises put a name to something that I didn't know. I was thinking about that idea that I'm like, why am I so tired all the time? Why am I fatigued about what's happening in the world? Why do I feel like the weight of the world is on my shoulders? And that sort of named it for me, I guess.

Nicole Muscanell: And I love that you brought this up, Joanne, because I think for me that was probably the most interesting trend. And just for our viewers too, in case people aren't aware of what a poly crisis actually is, because by the way, so I wrote the trend section, but when I sent this out to all of our subject matter experts and whatnot for review, we had a couple of people in there say, oh, wow, I didn't even know of this term and what this technically actually was. How cool. Yes, Kathe was one of those people.

And so I think you're right. A lot of people are familiar with the feelings that come from this or the impacts, but we maybe don't know the actual name for it and what it actually technically is. But it's basically when a lot of different, or let's say multiple crises are just going on simultaneously, and even though they might not be directly related to each other, they interact with each other in ways that actually exacerbates the overall total outcome or impacts felt by these things. And so I think one reason why we might not be explicitly aware of this all the time is we do tend to, as humans look at things I think more in isolated ways.

And that's just because of our brains. We don't have the mental capacity to think about everything all the time, but we are like, oh, we know this trend's going on over here, this trend's going on over here. But I think sometimes we forget that these can compound, and then we're feeling the cumulative effects of all these things going on in the world. And so I love this trend, even though currently in general, it brings a lot of, I guess, negative outcomes because we're talking about crises happening at the same time. But I love the trend because I think it gets us to not think about the world in an isolated way. It kind of says, Hey, look, let's look at the complexity of the world. It's complex and all of these things are happening at the same time, and these things are interactive and we need to be aware of all of these things compounding and coming together to really impact higher ed and just everyday life.

Kathe Pelletier: Well, and I think going back to what Jenay was saying about not blaming the students for cognitive changes or brain changes, I think giving grace to ourselves as educators as we are feeling the weight of poly crises and just the cognitive load of processing all that's happening around us and being in survival mode. And also as educators, we want to help students and we want to help change the world. And so I think that having that felt sense of, I'm exhausted and that's okay, and I don't need to do everything today. And that's really important to me to recognize. And

Joanne Struch: I think that's while we're on, go ahead Joan. I was just going to say I think that's important to recognize again, there's no blame obviously, but also important to recognize in our students and the expectations that we have, I guess, right? Education has, Western education has a certain structure that we have. We generally, unless institutions are doing something really revolutionary, we have a term system. There's generally if certain courses have midterms, finals, the assignments are always due, usually at the end of the term. And sort of just thinking about how, I guess the poly crisis, the big picture affects that and that students in the world are not the same as students in the world when the Western education system was developed and when the term system was developed and all of those kinds of things. And so thinking about what that means to how we structure our education cadence, I guess is really important too. I think,

Jenay Robert: Nicole, while we're talking about this trend, it might be interesting to talk a little bit, I feel like this poly crisis trend had a direct impact on the way we did the Horizon Report this year. And this is something that most people won't know about unless they were part of the process. It might be kind of fun to move the curtain on that a little bit. Do you want to talk about that process we went through with the panel?

Nicole Muscanell: Sure. And then I would also love to hear Joanne's perspective after I talk a little bit about it since she's a panelist, I'd love to hear how it was for her. So we did something unique in this year's report, and that is, so for the collection of the nomination and voting on the top trends that are included, a lot of that took place in November slash early December. And so we did that, and then I had written it up and we started just kind of looking at the world's developments current events. We had the change in US administration in January, and we were like, we need to pivot a little bit because we might need to go back and reflect on these trends because so much has happened even in the span of just one to two months. And we want to make sure that we're getting our readers and institutions information that's going to be still up to date and relevant for their strategic planning as they plan for the future.

So we kind of called in an emergency meeting and pulled the panel back together and we had everybody just do a live in session. Let's revisit the trends and talk about what new developments have emerged in the world that are relevant to these trends. And so now when you read the trends section of the report, you'll see for each trend category, we have a just in time updates section where we kind of go back and say, okay, more recently, here's some things that you need to be aware about in it. It could actually impact some of these trends. But I do want to note something really important, which is that I think in our revisiting of the trends, it wasn't the case that we went back and we were like, oh, no, these are no longer trends anymore. That did not happen. What actually ended up happening is that all of those things are still trends.

It's just that given recent developments, I think some trends we just know now have new obstacles or barriers that are going to impact their trajectory, and then other trends just have them simply accelerated. So an example of that is one of our trends is that the potential for trade wars is increasing. And we had written that back in December-ish or whatever. And so obviously that's in the area of trade where politically things have really escalated. And so we had to go back and say, actually this is progressing maybe a little bit more than we expected it to. And so that might be something that actually speeds up. But in other areas, I'll give another example. So interest in inclusive learning environments, designing inclusive learning environments. Again, I would say that's still definitely a trend. A lot of the teaching and learning community is very much invested in that. So that's ongoing. But now in light of, especially in the US political endeavors and executive orders that are being signed, there's now some new barriers that I think institutions are facing, especially when we're talking about DEI in higher ed now, and how can we actually go about designing inclusive learning spaces for students. So trends are still trends, but I think trajectories may have changed a little bit given what's going on in the world. And in some case, we see some acceleration of some of the trends that the panelists identified for us originally.

So very exciting, unique to this year's report. And like I said, I would love to hear, Joanne, your perceptions of that pivot and us coming back together to reflect on these things.

Joanne Struch: Yeah, I was thinking about this last night. I was just reflecting on some of the pieces of the report, but also thinking I should have taken better notes during that session when we came back together, because I thought I had taken some notes and then I hadn't. And I was trying to think back to it. First of all, I wanted to say that at the time, having been a panelist before, I was expecting the scenarios meeting that was kind of like, that's the structure of things. And when we came back for that meeting where we were revisiting the trends in light of current situations, my thought was, wow, what a great pivot. I thought you had to do that. That was something that you had to do. And I was thinking for your team, what a great opportunity that you took there and what great thinking around that.

So I mean, I guess foresight maybe as part of that, thinking about what is needed at the moment and how to maybe thinking about those outcomes. But that was really, I just thought it was really a good opportunity. The discussion, I thought, as you've said, Nicole didn't change any of the trends in the group that I was in. We, I think the group was discussed, the trends, and it wasn't like we thought, oh no, this isn't a trend anymore or this isn't something we need to talk about. It did, as you said, highlight some of the trends, think about how they were going to move forward a little bit more quickly. I also think people needed at that moment to maybe have that discussion. I think there was so much, and still is I think some uncertainty around things that are happening in the world, certainly predominantly, I think about it in terms of relationship, American, Canadian relationships.

And so I think it was in some ways I felt a little, I don't want to say cathartic, but in some ways a way to have a discussion with colleagues who would discuss these things in a respectful and intelligent way. And I think as panelists, we needed that. So I think that was also what came out of it for me was that it was a good opportunity to have these discussions in a guided way that, and I think you framed it too, we're not here to talk about politics. We're here to talk about the trends, but that was really something that was needed. So yeah, it was a very interesting conversation and I really appreciated that. I think none of the trends change. You mentioned Nicole, the one about the focus on DEI initiatives, where that is maybe going, I was also thinking about the trend, about concerns about deglobalization, so the siloing, the segmenting of countries of institutions or whatnot.

And that it seems to me almost that that's also accelerating a little bit now in terms of what's happening. Obviously though not as significant on the global scene since the time. We've also had an election here in Canada that was really influenced by happenings in the us. So that also for us to have a discussion now if we were to as Canadian institutions or as a Canadian higher ed industry, our discussions might be a bit different too in terms of what trends are there too. So I think just a lot happening in the world that influences some of these things.

Kathe Pelletier: And in some ways that conversation could represent a model for what discussions at institutions are like. I know, Joanne, you've worked really hard to bring the Horizon Report and foresight overall and that kind of thinking to your institution. But the thing I love about foresight is that a lot of people think that it's like, oh, you're looking off into the future and it's all science fiction and you're predicting crystal ball, and it really is looking around you at what's happening now and anticipating the trajectory of those things. Are they going to get bigger, smaller? Are they going to combine with other trends that are happening and then what the implications of that are? And so that discussion I think was just such a great way to reflect that, okay, here's where we are right now. Let's look around us and what's the, so what might be some either bigger or smaller impacts than we had anticipated earlier when we were together as a panel.

Sophie White: I agree. It feels like a really thoughtful approach to me too, that we're not just scrapping everything we've done before because there's this unprecedented time. We're taking what we've done before, but adding this new lens on top of it and revisiting based on the current environment. So just want to say, I appreciate that. It's also very easy when you're in the middle of a busy time, everyone has a lot going on to just say, okay, we're done with this report, we're publishing it. We finished this project. But to actually take a step back and say, should we be looking at this again from a different perspective based on current events is such an important model to look at the frameworks we already have and fit in what's going on in the world to it.

Jenay Robert: It really,

Nicole Muscanell: Oh, sorry. Go ahead.

Jenay Robert: No, go, Nicole.

Nicole Muscanell: Well, I just wanted to know it was helpful for us on the EDUCAUSE team because it really forced us to really look at our process too. And I don't know how many people realize this, but our creation of a single Horizon Report spans six, one half shaman, one at six months or more. And so that's part of, we were like, okay, we got to, so now we're currently working on refining our process and shortening that time just so that when we do report on these trends and these key technologies and practices and whatnot, that they're not stale by the time they get to our readers.

Jenay Robert: I do want to point out that I think that what we did this time with this report kind of shows the strength of the strategic foresight methodology, which it's cyclical for a reason because nothing ever stays the same. Everything's constantly changing. And so bringing our readers along on that journey, I hope that serves as an example. And I think Kathe had mentioned this about what you can do when you take this back to your institution, what you can do as a team when you're reading this report and really refreshing it in the context of your own institution in the context of any current events. And then to Nicole's point, none of the trends were no longer trends. Remember that we use a ten-year time horizon for the Horizon Report. And so our panelists did a great job of picking things that would be relevant over the next decade. And again, I want to say that I think that what we did shows the strength of that methodology that so much changed in the world in a period of a few months, but those trends were still relevant in different ways with different impacts. And that's the strength of the methodology, is to really think about things that will be relevant for the next X number of years and then continually go back to them and refresh them and think about how the impacts are changing and what's changing around you and how that then translates into action.

Sophie White: I'm curious, so we're talking a bit about innovation, adapting to change resilience. Do you think that higher ed as a sector is maybe better prepared to handle all the uncertainty as a result of the covid pandemic that we had to react five years ago to this major global change and now we're seeing all of these global forces change rapidly? Again, Nicole, I guess I'm looking at your social psychologist background and just a question I'm curious about.

Nicole Muscanell: Yeah, I have so many answers. Okay, let me give because I don't have a single answer. I think one thing is we already know that the way higher ed is structured, it makes change slow in general. So I would say that just because of the way that it's been structured for so long, that's actually probably a challenge. It's probably really challenging for higher ed institutions to be able to quickly pivot to things even though they can, because we saw this in Covid. I think it's definitely a hard process just because of how silos and how dispersed higher ed campuses tend to be. But the other thing I wanted to bring up as more of the psychological perspective is I would be curious because we know if you look at self-regulation and self-control, the more people have to practice those skills, the more depleted they become. And so I'm almost wondering if higher ed's reached or is going to reach this point where they've had to keep adjusting and adapting and pivoting that now they're just tired and don't have the actual space, especially psychologically to continue doing this in a meaningful way over the next however many years. So I'm not saying that that's for sure happening. I'm just wondering if that's something that could be going on or we need to be mindful about.

Kathe Pelletier: We see that in our teaching and learning workforce report for sure, maybe a little bit less so in cybersecurity and privacy report. But the teaching and learning workforce is tired and has been, at last year's report was similar. And I think know we're not talking about that report specifically here, but it is interesting how other humans can help with that exhaustion, whether it's a supervisor or a leader or a team and those things. And that the avenues towards professional development and learning are the things that our respondents said helped them feel less tired and less likely to want to find a job somewhere else. And so I think a theme of what we've been talking about today really is that kind of shared compassion for yourself and others and really recognizing that we have been under this immense cognitive load since 2020 if not longer, and it is fatiguing.

And at the same time, I do think when you look at the responses of some institutions to the AI capabilities that are available now, there is a much, many institutions have really gelled around a vision and a direction and a operationalization of these capabilities much more quickly than I would've anticipated, both from a technology side and changing teaching methods and assessment methods and that kind of thing. And that also aligns with some of our older now research around digital transformation where institutions that had already started thinking about the culture and the workforce and the technology and changes that they would need to make in order to transform, move towards a digital transformation approach, we're much more prepared to accelerate change during covid. And so similarly, institutions that have invested in digitizing and digitalizing and working towards digital transformation, we're likely more ready to adopt and scale specifically AI, but other technologies that are coming down the pike. And so I think that'll be interesting to watch going forward. Will there be, I know our ai, another report, our AI landscape report talks about the AI digital divide, and is that something we're going to see widening as some institutions really can't marshal the collective resources and the structures and the workforce culture technology changes in order to take advantage of the AI just as an example, and others will be able to accelerate more quickly. So just something I think that'll be interesting to watch.

Sophie White: So Kathe, you mentioned AI. I feel like maybe it's the right time for us to dive into that. I saw AI all over the trend section of the report as well as the key technologies and practices related to how institutions can innovate around AI, but also how to shore up these foundations of things like AI governance and policies and guidelines. Anything related to AI that you wanted to highlight for our conversation today?

Jenay Robert: I'll highlight one thing in terms of key technologies and practices that doesn't immediately jump out as AI related, but I think really is, which is shoring up cybersecurity and someone will need to fact check me on this, but I think that something similar showed up in last year's Teaching and Learning Horizon Report. And it's not always a topic that services in the teaching and learning world. It's kind of one of those things where we know in the back of our minds, this is important, but it's not part of our day-to-day workflow necessarily. It should be, but it isn't usually. But I think that as generative AI in particular has proliferated over the last couple of years, people, their attention is being drawn to this as an essential element, an essential function of the institution, not just something that is, there's a roadblock. When I want to procure new technology, I have to get a check on a box from somebody in cybersecurity. But no, I really want to be invested in this. And I understand that me as an individual, I'm part of the perimeter of the institution. I, I'm an entry point into the institution. My data is at the perimeter of the institution. I want to protect myself, my students, my colleagues, and also the institution. So I think I'm excited to see that there's awareness being raised about this. Definitely. I see it being propelled by AI. So I just wanted to highlight that since it's not always something we talk about a lot in teaching and learning.

Joanne Struch: I think at the same time too, Jenay, the key technology and practice of critical digital literacy also has that AI undertone to it as well. Again, it's not necessarily something that was highlighted within that section, but certainly as a chair and as an instructor, the conversations around critical thinking, critical digital literacy necessarily involve AI now too. How do we bring that human element to it? What are the portions of our conversations with AI or our interactions with AI that we need to be critical about and that digital literacy includes our interactions with AI. So yeah, I mean, although it's not the forefront in that key technology or key practice, it certainly has an undertone of that too. So I would say that maybe AI is latent in all of the key technologies and practices in a way. I don't know if others agree with that, but certainly that's what I've been seeing.

Nicole Muscanell: And I think somewhat relatedly, I don't know if you all saw in the news how the US government's considering integrating AI into K–12 education, so they're drafting an executive order. I don't know how much momentum this has. I don't know if that's definitely something that's going to play out, but I think it's really interesting. And I'd be curious, I think as it relates to us, if that does happen, is it going to be effectively done? And then what does that mean for higher ed? Right? So then we get these students who are already getting a lot of AI training in K–12, so what are they going to look like and once they get to college and how is this going to impact their needs and learning experiences throughout their college career?

Joanne Struch: Yeah, absolutely. That is, as those types of initiatives are increased, how does it affect the way that we're teaching in higher ed too? I think that's really important to think about. So maybe another trend for next year, who knows?

Nicole Muscanell: I would be curious to see too, if it makes what impact it would have on digital literacy if we really start to see that go into effect.

Jenay Robert: I think it's digital literacy and also students' expectations. That's something that, I can't remember if I talked about it extensively in the final draft of the report, but certainly our panelists mentioned at times that students' expectations are changing, and we can expect that with more and more of these AI technologies being available, not just in schools but in our personal lives, that students will expect more of that personalization. I remember, I think the analogy for me is when I became more aware of predictive analytics and the power that was there in those approaches, I started to ask questions like, how come my banking app doesn't alert me when they see unusual spending happening? And this is obviously a while ago because this is pretty commonplace now, but I started to ask questions around, why isn't it that the services I interact with on a daily basis aren't leveraging this approach to help me? They're leveraging it to advertise to me. So can they leverage it to help me? And I think, so that's an analogy that would extend into now the much more advanced generative ai where I wouldn't be surprised if already or very soon we have students start saying, yeah, but I remember from high school that we had this program that did this thing that helped me on an individual basis day to day, and why don't you have that at your university? So I think student expectation will play a role.

Kathe Pelletier: And I think on the flip side, we know that there are young people today, some of my children included, who are like, no, thank you, ai. I am not interested. You don't get my data. No, thank you. And so while students may be exposed to it in various ways in school, I think we also should be prepared to see students who have said no for years and years and years and come to college with that different expectation that they will not need to use AI and not be expected to and not want to. And so what does that look like where you've got these almost bifurcated populations of student types, and is our role to prepare them and require that they participate or is there our, is this another form of universal design for learning where we provide different approaches and modalities for individuals to learn the same thing? So I think that will add some complexity to how we think about teaching and learning as well.

Joanne Struch: Yeah, sort of while we're talking about the, I know you asked about AI specifically Sophie, but we're talking about sort of the key technologies and practices. I just wanted to highlight the portions of that section that are the taking action portions, because I really think that's important. And as I was looking through them, I think those are almost like a type of, I want to say checklist or to-do list for institutions who maybe aren't doing some of those things already. They're not particularly necessarily difficult things. They're not, I would say super revolutionary things, but sometimes innovation comes in the mundane. Sometimes those are the things that needs to be done. And so I guess from my perspective, from an institutional perspective, I would say for those who are anticipating the reports and going to be looking at it, pay attention to that, those taking action portions because they do provide very short and sometimes the low hanging fruits of what can be done to support or to advance some of those key technologies and practices. So I thought that was a really important thing in the report to take a look at.

Jenay Robert: I just want to underscore that and say that for anyone who's not aware, that section, just like the rest of the Horizon Report comes from our panelists. So the taking action sections are not Jenay as the researcher saying, oh, based on all these other things the panelists told us, here's the actions we think you should take. No, we directly ask the panelists, what actions do you recommend that readers of the Horizon Report can take with regard to this key technology or practice? And so those come straight from the panelists. We don't add any other extra actions. So this is really a matter of the community saying, these are the types of things we think are really important. And I do appreciate that you called out that some of them are quite small and kind of low hanging fruit. And I would say that one of our recent guests on the pod, Karen Costa, really kind of, I guess, I dunno, reinforced for me the importance of small action. She talks about small is all, it's an idea that she gets from the author Adrian Marie Brown. And I don't want to drift too far off base here, but the idea is that in these times when things feel so overwhelming and so big and we have poly crises and there's so many things we care about, sometimes we need to just sit there and say, okay, small is all, what's the small thing that I can do today? That's a big takeaway for me.

Joanne Struch: Yeah, I love, that's sort of exactly what I was thinking about Jana as I was reading those. I was like, okay, this is manageable. This something that's manageable that I can affect in my institution. And I'm sort of the middle management, if you will. I'm a chair, so I have some influence on the big picture. I have lots of influence in my own department. And I was thinking, these are, I can manage this. These are things I can manage that I could speak with my instructors about, even bring to students. I think it is very manageable. And I was thinking, I don't know the book that you're referring to, but I was thinking about the small teaching, the small teaching concept, and the names of the authors have just escaped me, but have really embraced the small teaching online book that really I think is important. And just that idea that there are, we don't have to make grand gestures even in the face of a poly crisis, as you've said. We sometimes think, oh, we have to battle forward with huge gestures. And I don't know that that's always the case. I think we can make those small steps, and that's what really is important, I think, to our students and to our institutions.