Unconventional Paths to IT Careers

Wes Johnson: Welcome to the ED College Rising Voices podcast, where we amplify the voices of young professionals in higher education. I'm Wes Johnson. I'm joined by the amazing

Sarah Buszka: Sarah Buszka.

Wes Johnson: Awesome. And we're your co-host for the show today. We're also members and friends of the ED College Young Professionals Advisory Committee, also known as ypac. And today we are going to be talking about a topic that I'm pretty familiar with and it's coming into it in particular, higher education it, but you don't come from a traditional IT or technology background. This one's near and dear to me because I actually started my career in finance. I thought I was going to be an accountant. I don't know why I wanted to be an accountant, but that is where I started. So I started from the bank and then jumped into it and the business office and then somehow ended up here today. Sarah, is it similar for you? Is that how you

Sarah Buszka: Oh, yeah, same for me too. I started in research, Ashley, I thought I was going to be a researcher.

Wes Johnson: That sounds more exciting than an accountant. No, no. Knock to my,

Sarah Buszka: They both sound kind of boring. Are we boring?

Wes Johnson: Maybe. So maybe that's really what the podcast is about to do.

Wes Johnson: So I guess before we get into it and introduce, I guess a couple of things that came to mind and then Sarah, feel free to jump in one looking at our friends at edu. Cause one of the things that I think, Sarah, you pulled out, looking at our notes, y'all, we cheat look at our notes during the show. And I think Edcon has kind of recently evolved their mission and values to add something beyond just technology services or technology infrastructure. Now it's about the data and how we use the data, how we view the data, context of data. Anything else there? I might be necessary.

Sarah Buszka: Yeah, you're totally on point, Wes. And building on it, technology has become very much an interdisciplinary field. I think even in the past 10 years, we've seen so many more fields coming together to collaborate on these more complex problems we have in modern society. And I think that's very accurately reflected in ED'S new mission that they published just last fall with the intentional inclusion of data in addition to technology and basically saying that these are inseparable now.

Wes Johnson: Absolutely. I also on EDU college's review, I want to say in May, I don't have the exact date in front of you, but there was a article put up called the Leadership Role Considerations. And I felt like it was a very timely, though it spoke to leadership and some folks kind of attached that to specific roles or titles. Really we can all be leaders in any role that we hold. And a lot of the things they called out to prepare you or to strengthen your leader toolbox, none of it said, learn how to code. None of it said understand infrastructure to detail though all those things are absolutely important. If that's your specialization, take advantage of it. But a lot of it was emotional intelligence communication context. So I think that really spoke strongly to some of the things we might jump into here. So with no further ado, do we want to jump to these guests? I imagine they have all the knowledge. We're the boring ones, Sarah, so,

Sarah Buszka: Right. Yes, we do. I'm so thrilled to invite two of very near dear friends of mine and the Ypac, James debell and Ryan Lottie. James debell is the director of Academic Technology at Dickinson College. He's been working in higher education since 2015. Professionally, he's very interested in how technology can be used to make learning more accessible in a variety of ways. And personally and most importantly, James is a girl dad and enjoys spending time with family and watching Yankee games. And next we have Dr. Ryan Lottie. He's a technology adoption consultant at the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education at the University of Toronto. Ryan began his career in education as a high school physical education and math teacher in the K 12 system. He has also served as a college instructor and an accessibility consultant. Over time, his professional interests have evolved drawing him towards the digital aspects of teaching and learning and outside of work, Ryan enjoys quality time with his wife, family, friends, and their beloved new puppy. It's great to have you both here. Welcome to the show.

James D'Annibale: Yeah,

Ryan Lahti: Thank you. Thanks for having us. Yeah.

Sarah Buszka: Yeah. So one of our favorite questions we ask folks to kick the show off is what is your superpower? James, are you willing to share first?

James D'Annibale: Yeah, sure. So I have to admit, I had to go back and listen to what your previous guest said because part of me was kind of like, I want to be Wolverine and say that I can heal and do whatever. But more realistic, I think what you're really looking for is I'm really good at figuring out what I need to care about and what I can just let go.

Sarah Buszka: That's beautiful.

James D'Annibale: Apathy can be a strength sometimes.

Sarah Buszka: I love that. I love that. James, thank you. I'm going to be calling you up since I'm in grad school and need help figuring that out too. And Ryan, what is your superpower?

Ryan Lahti: Yeah, for me, probably something along the lines of communication or interpersonal skills. I'm usually the bit of the office prankster. I like to have fun, lighthearted conversations. I also love talking about anything but work while I'm at work. So that's definitely my superpower.

Sarah Buszka: I can attest to that. Having worked with you on the ypac and I, you for that superpower. So maybe just to dive right into the topic. Obviously we're reading through your bios and you both have a non-technology background. So what brought you to technology? How did you get here? What was the path? Was there some defining moment that you realized, Hey, I actually want to be in technology, or maybe tell us a little bit about how that journey looked And Ryan, maybe we'll start with you.

Ryan Lahti: Sure. I know you both mentioned how you maybe had a little bit more of a boring career or start to your careers before you got into it.

Sarah Buszka: Was yours more boring?

Ryan Lahti: Mine was actually a little bit more exciting teaching phys ed, outdoor education, canoe trips. That's

Sarah Buszka: Why you're on the show.

Ryan Lahti: Exactly, yes. But the reality is it's just I think we can all agree how technology is connected to just about every type of profession out there. And teaching is definitely one of the big ones. So starting off as a high school math teacher, using something as simple as a laptop and a smart board, and then the interest kind of peaks and takes off and you start going down that rabbit hole and learning more and more about technology that's going to make your job easier, more fun, better for your students. And so that's where I started shifting towards. And yeah, I slowly shifted into the college system, then into the university system, and now I work at one of the top universities in the world and one of the top faculties of education in the world doing their technology stuff. So I'm really fortunate and it's a unique pathway and I think we all have pretty special pathways.

Sarah Buszka: You go Ryan? Yes. And James, are you willing to share?

James D'Annibale: Yeah, sure. So I started out as a school teacher, as a school librarian first because that's the job I could get. And so then I started an MLS so that I could keep that job transitioned to be a social studies teacher then. And I was just good at using educational technology. So they actually lowered my teaching load so that I could help other teachers better use technology. And then when I made the leap to working at colleges, the job that I was offered when I got there, it was already being done by three other people. Everything in my job description was absolutely worthless. So I went to my boss who he's now the CIO at Muhlenberg, Jose Doan, great mentor of mine, shout out to Joe Z for this. He told me, he's like, Hey, take a month, talk to everybody you can on campus and you figure out where the holes are and write your own job description. And that's how I really got into higher ed tech and haven't looked back since.

Sarah Buszka: Wow, that's really great advice too, James. Thank you for sharing, just looking at where the holes are and finding opportunities and proposing it. That's wonderful. You both are so inspiring. I'm going to keep giving you platitude, so I'll let Wes ask the next question.

Wes Johnson: So I'm curious, James, starting with you when you did get to that point, right, your boss, your CIO said, Hey, figure out what the gaps are and let us know what your job should be. Was there a point in that where you're like, Hey, I've been preparing for this moment all my life, I've been wanting to get into technology, I'm ready for this. Here's what we need to do. Or was it, oh, I discovered this as I started figuring out what those gaps were. Was it something you were ready for right at that moment or did it just kind of happened?

James D'Annibale: Yeah, I guess it was more organic than anything I was looking for. I don't think I really knew what I wanted to be when I grew up until I was 28, maybe even now at 36. I don't know. I thought I wanted to be a football coach. And then when I was a football coach, I hated being a football coach. I thought I wanted to be a classroom teacher. I didn't really like that all that much either. Everything I thought I wanted to do, I didn't really like it all that much. And then when I got into educational technology just at random because that's where the hole was and I thought I could do a good job, I think I found a home.

Wes Johnson: And Ron, was it similar for you?

Ryan Lahti: Yeah, I think slowly you try to put yourself out there, especially as a teacher, you want to be a leader in something in your school, you want to stick out. So technology's a great way if you can be the go-to person to show someone something simple like sending an email or how to create a PowerPoint. And then from there, I think more responsibilities just kind of get shoveled onto you as you become the default tech person in the institution. And then part of that ties into a little bit faking it till you make it right. I mean, I was a little bit techie when I first started teaching and once all these new responsibilities came forward, it's like I need to start learning stuff. I'm kind of agreeing to do things that I don't know how to do. So I'm trying to learn things in the evenings. And I mean that's just a part of being a teacher though too, is faking it till you make it and putting yourself out there,

Sarah Buszka: Fake it till you make it. And I did

James D'Annibale: Make it until you make it forever. And one day we were sitting on the couch watching tv and I turned to her. I said, Shelby, we're both actually in leadership positions now. I think maybe we can stop faking it. I think maybe we need it.

Sarah Buszka: Wait, we've arrived. Are we here?

Sarah Buszka: These are all really interesting comments and points and I resonate with them sincerely. And I'm sure Wes, I've seen you nodding vigorously. I think we all do. All of us having come from non-technology backgrounds. And I want to ask a question around imposter syndrome. That's something I certainly struggle with very early on in my career. But for folks who may not know what it is, I'm going to read a definition from Oxford from Google Imposter syndrome is defined as the persistent inability to believe that one's success is deserved or has been legitimately achieved as a result of one's own effort or skills. So given our journeys into technology and higher education, has this been a factor for you? James, would you go first?

James D'Annibale: Yeah, I mean, Ryan said earlier he just learned all he could and he wasn't techie to start out, but now he is like, I still feel like I'm not techie. I do way more, my skillset that I bring to work is way more leadership based than it is technology based. And I'll always be an educator first before I even talk about technology. And sometimes I even tell faculty when they ask me, Hey, how could I use technology to make this better? And I'm like, no, we need to just do a graphic organizer on paper. That's how you could make this lesson better.

James D'Annibale: My team that I have are way more techie than me. The guy whose office is next to me, his name's Todd, he knows way more about technology than I ever will. And so even now that I'm in a role where I feel like I can be in this role for a really long time and I've kind of made it, I still have that imposter syndrome a little bit. I don't know enough about technology when the people that I'm leading to and I just have to remind myself that my job isn't necessarily to have hands on keyboard all the time. My job is to be able to look at the big picture, figure out what context we do our work in, and how my people that are technology experts can do their jobs better.

Sarah Buszka: That's a really great mindset to have too, James. And I sense I'm sure that's something that's helped you and still helps you along this path, right, of feeling that tension. What about you, Ryan?

Ryan Lahti: Yeah, I think working in IT and higher ed, you're, even though you may be somewhat invisible to students or your community because you're working in the back office hanging around by some server racks or something like that, you're also super accountable. And when mistakes are made, they become very visible very fast. So I think there's a little bit of pressure on folks who especially are new to it. And the other reality is that it is changing super fast. So even when you think you've learned something, a new technology comes out, you feel like you're kind of taking a step back and then you don't know if you should maybe be in charge of something or running a certain project. So I mean the amount of skills that are required to get jobs done and get projects off the ground, I mean, I've worked in a lot of different areas. I think it's very unique in the IT field. So that's something that I struggle with and I think a lot of new people who are new to it also do.

Sarah Buszka: Yeah, that's a really good point. Do you have any maybe tips or advice to folks on how they might navigate that?

Ryan Lahti: I think one of the interesting things in Canada is that Canada is known to be one of the most post-secondary educated countries in the world, US in South Korea. So everyone has either an undergraduate degree or a college diploma, something along those lines. So if you're talking about working in an IT department, everyone you work with probably has some sort of specialized training or courses that they've taken. So I think engaging in more professional development, whether formal or informal, is really going to get you that much further ahead in your career. And also hopefully not feeling like an imposter as much anymore. So I'm a big proponent of taking more programs. I think a lot of institutions offer tuition waiver credits for their staff, which is super important. Something as simple as taking LinkedIn training courses, looking at the cause website, obviously tons of great workshops and cgs or community groups out there.

Ryan Lahti: Conferences are super cool. But also I just love the more non-formal professional development training. And one thing that has always stuck out to me was about 10 years ago I was doing a research paper and I was reading and doing research about professional development and I came across an article and it was called Kilimanjaro, a Case of Meaningful Adventure and Service Learning Abroad. And basically what it was about was how a bunch of undergraduate students went to Tanzania for a year and they used that as their kind of professional development and learning experience. And the results showed that it was so good for building their communication skills, leadership and everything else that goes into being a good employee or being good team member. So I just like the idea of both a little bit of formal, a little bit of free and a little bit of informal professional development.

Sarah Buszka: I love that. Putting this in my mental thought cabinet to ask my director for a trip to Kilimanjaro for my own professional development. Exactly. Thank you. Those are such wonderful tips

James D'Annibale: And advice to bring some friends with you. So

Ryan Lahti: Definitely

Sarah Buszka: We'll bring the Ikas Rising Voices podcast on a trip. There we go. Yeah, we're going to pour one out there. James, do you have any maybe tips or advice to give to folks who might be struggling with imposter syndrome and how to navigate that?

James D'Annibale: Yeah, I think it's really important to understand what your perceived weaknesses are versus your real weaknesses. I have a web developer that works on my team and I really don't know much about web development. That is a real weakness of mine when it comes to helping him do his job. So that's something where I know I need to learn more about what he does. An example of a perceived weakness might be, I have another guy on my team that does, he works a lot with the chat, G-P-T-A-P-I on a Japanese chatbot that he's working on. And I don't necessarily need to know how APIs work because you can just use them without knowing exactly how they work. So that's not necessarily, I might think to myself, oh, I need to read up on APIs. I don't even know what API stands for. To be honest with you, most people that use them don't know what API I means, so I don't think I need to read a book about the history of APIs and how they work. I think that might be more of a perceived weakness than a, or maybe the perceived and real is wrong. Maybe I need to go back to my superpower and think what do I need to actually care about and what can I just let slide

Sarah Buszka: Right

James D'Annibale: Facts. So yeah, think about what do you actually need to know to do your job and to get to, if you do want a promotion or get into a leadership role, what are your actual holes that you need to fill rather than what you perceive might other people care about?

Sarah Buszka: Right. That's such an important point too, because there's always, of course, as you ascend, there's always going to be folks who have opinions and they're always going to want to share in some capacity in some way. And we all have different lenses, and it's not to say that their opinions aren't valid, but to your point, from your stance and where you are, you see things that they don't do and you have to learn how to sift through that. I think some of the best advice I got from a former mentor of mine when I was struggling with my own imposter syndrome was to learn enough to be conversant and that's it. And to leverage your team of experts who are truly the experts and make it really clear that that's their role and yours is to do something entirely different. And that's how a team works.

James D'Annibale: That's a much better way to word what I was trying to say.

Sarah Buszka: I totally understand. We're a team here. It's early.

Wes Johnson: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I got to talk to one of my old staff members. They had just got a new manager role back home. I'm from Georgia originally, but I'm in California right now. And we were talking about imposter syndrome and they kind of asked me, did Wes, do you doubt yourself a good bid and your job and all that good stuff? I said, absolutely, I do all the time. And so they asked me for some thoughts on that. I shared with them from my own perspective, not trying to speak for the world here, but I kind of think of doubt. Not to say imposter syndrome is kind of its own thing off that path, but doubt in general kind of has a similar relationship to our wellbeing as pain, right? Pain is generally seen as a negative thing. None of us want to feel pain, but without pain, we may not realize that we're in danger or have some kind of issue or might not be able to make the correct decision on some situation we're in.

Wes Johnson: And so when I think about doubt though, it's uncomfortable. To your point earlier, James, it is an opportunity to say, okay, why am I doubting this thing that I'm deciding on or working on right now? Is it perceived like you said, or is there a real thing here that I need to look into? And I think to your point, kind of embracing it and kind of looking at that situation and saying, okay, I can actually use this to my benefit. Okay. And normal to doubt things that you're doing, we all do it to some extent, but how can I use it? I can use it to panic in this situation or I can use it to guide me to the right decision, which might be the decision I already made.

James D'Annibale: Yeah. I think the worst thing people can do in that situation is just get paralyzed by it. I played football in college and our offensive line coach used to say, if you're going to make a mistake, make it hard. If you're going to hit the wrong guy, hit him hard. I think the same thing can be said for that imposter syndrome stuff. You got to do something.

Sarah Buszka: I like that. I'm just picturing James just hitting someone hard. He's just coming in. I'll look out,

Wes Johnson: Just walk into the media room, no doubts.

Sarah Buszka: And then James goes to HR that day.

Ryan Lahti: Well,

Sarah Buszka: But I hit 'em hard.

Ryan Lahti: That's really reassuring. Wes talking about making mistakes even as a more senior level person. I think a lot of us, we put the senior administrators or even people who are just maybe our manager or supervisor, we put them on this pedestal thinking that they know everything and they do everything perfectly why they're in that role. But the reality is that they make mistakes too. They may not know the answers. It reminds me of when you're a kid and you think your parents are the smartest people in the world, and then when you grew up you go, oh, wow, that's kind of crazy. You think parents are the smartest people in the world. They've obviously made mistakes too. So yeah, it's just really interesting that you put that out there.

Wes Johnson: Yeah, it is actually funny. I discovered it through becoming a parent. When you have those kids and you realize like, oh, so we just make this up as we go. Okay. Yeah.

Sarah Buszka: Facts. I know James as a girl, dad agrees. I saw that nod.

James D'Annibale: We had our first one, we were 19, we had no idea what we were doing, but

Sarah Buszka: You're doing great. Yeah. One theme I've been hearing in this conversation, and this is one theme that I just love so much about our young professional constituent group and just working with young professionals in general is a growth mindset. We really value education. We value learning, we value feedback. We want to hear how we're doing because we always want to improve. I mean, all of us have degrees, we all have undergraduate degrees, we all are either pursuing or have master's or PhD degrees here in the zoom room, if you will. And I'm kind of curious to folks, I always like to learn how do you continuously cultivate that growth mindset? Is there one trick or tool or some kind of strategy that you deploy to stay in that growth mindset and to find spaces and people who inspire you to continuously grow? Brian, I'll go with you first.

Ryan Lahti: Yeah, I think it kind of ties back to my superpower I mentioned, but I love building relationships as kind of a foundation of whatever institution I'm working in. And then from there I can just ask questions and I ask, I'm the kind of person who asks lots of questions to a lot of different people. I think it's really important to learn from members of your team who are maybe more technical, like developers. You are not going to learn all the things they do, but like you said, to have a bit of that conversational kind of understanding. And then on the other side, to learn from administrators and people who kind of manage the office or the faculty or that sort of thing. Because the more questions you ask, I think it puts it out there that you want to learn more. And if you have good administrators or good staff or colleagues I should say that you work with, they're going to give you some information. It's really going to help you grow. And that's why part of my job is I love seeking out kind of cross-functional projects where I'm working with very different groups of community members and stakeholders or external vendors to try to bring a project to life. And I think it's just really important to focus on building those relationships as kind of the backbone of really everything.

Sarah Buszka: Yeah, that's really great. Two things I want to call out from what you said. I think they're so important. I'm going to say it twice. You said asking questions shows that you want to learn. I love that because I think sometimes folks can perceive asking questions as a criticism and it can elicit this kind of fear and threat response in folks. And I just want to say this here for our podcast and our listeners, when young professionals ask questions, it's because we're curious and we want to learn. And we're not trying to do anything nefarious, haven't had any personal experience with that.

Ryan Lahti: And that could be a really tricky thing when you're just starting out your career. You were just hired, you get hired by an IT department, and you got to ask your director, how do you turn your computer on? That could be problematic, but well thought out questions and reasoning behind them definitely goes a long way.

Sarah Buszka: Exactly, yes. And then something else you said, Ryan, you seek out cross-functional groups. I think that really resonates with how we even introduced this episode about interdisciplinary work and how much more we're doing that and how much more we can learn in our seeking to learn through those opportunities. So thank you for sharing that. James, is there anything you would like to add on?

James D'Annibale: Yeah, I just think with the growth mindset stuff, I think for me anyway, there's two ways that I think of growth a few years ago. There's kind of the stuff I need to learn to do my individual job, and then there's the stuff that I need to learn to achieve my long-term goals. A few years ago, I went to my old boss at Wilsons, Jose, who I mentioned before. I said, Jose, if I ever want your job, how do I get it? So we talked for a bit and he said, go do an MBA. So I did an MBA and I learned a lot. And that's really helped me in my new role that I have now at Dickinson. And someday, if I still ever want to be a CIO, I feel like it's going to help me with that. Not sure if I actually want to yet, but who knows.

James D'Annibale: And then on the job specific type of side, I don't think we have a choice working in technology, like Ryan said earlier, things are always changing, especially working in academic technology with AI right now, I don't have a choice, but one thing I do have to do is, like I said before, knowing what to care about and what not to care about. There's new news on AI almost every day, and sometimes I have to be like, I'm not carrying about that today, otherwise I'm not going to be able to do everything else I need to today. I'm not caring about ai, I'm not going to look at it. And I think especially with something like AI where it's happening that fast, I would hope that more people will start to do that. I get emails all the time from people, what about this announcement? And what about that? I'm like, dude, you don't need to care about that right now. Just let it go. Today is not the day to worry that you're going to lose your job about AI or because of ai.

Sarah Buszka: Yeah, I hear it. That's a great superpower too, James, because if you don't learn how to employ that, you can really get kind of sucked up in the group think and just kind of get into this echo chamber. And that's a dangerous place to be. And while we all have good intents, I think about wanting to stay on top of trends and things. I think realizing sometimes the unintended consequences of constantly swirling and ruminating are things that we should be mindful of too.

Wes Johnson: So Ryan, what's one takeaway you want our audience to walk away with from this conversation or your side?

Ryan Lahti: Yeah, I think if you are entering the world of it as a quote non-technical person, the reality is is that a lot of people working in IT are non-technical people. There's a lot of very interdisciplinary roles that exist in IT departments. So we can't always just have an IT team be filled with super technical people. We need people to help lead the projects, convey the messages, and do all the other stuff too, and leave the super technical work to the people who know what they're doing. So it's really important to be flexible and adaptable when you enter an IT department. Be willing to take on challenges, but also understand that you're not always going to be the smartest person or know the most about a certain technology. And that's okay. And that's why it's important to ask questions and not be afraid to.

Wes Johnson: Thank you for that. Ron. James, anything to add or do you have a takeaway you want to share with the

James D'Annibale: Good

Wes Johnson: Or the audience?

James D'Annibale: Yeah, I'd just say the positives I've gained from my non-technical strengths greatly outweigh what I've lost in my career from not being super technical. I think especially in roles where some of our people are super technical, there are things that they're not good at, and this isn't everybody, obviously there's people that are good at everything, but a lot of times our super technical folks, they're not great communicators. They're not the people I want emailing a faculty member who's upset. They're not somebody that I necessarily want planning out a whole project or working on strategic planning type of stuff. So just know what you're good at and really get really good at those things and the stuff that you're not good at. Build up enough that you're serviceable and that your strengths can kind of mask your weaknesses a little bit or make you more usable to the people around you. And two more things, if I have time. One is your people. Notice good work if you're always doing the right thing and just worrying about what's the next right thing I can do? People notice and they're going to see that talent. They're going to see your motivation, and somebody's going to take you under their wing and make sure that you do get the knowledge that you need. And the second thing is go Yankees.

Sarah Buszka: I knew you were going to sneak that in there.

James D'Annibale: Great. Jason, so far?

Ryan Lahti: Well, Jays, I'm also a big sports fan up in Canada, so what, I'm not cheering for my Blue Jays. I'm cheering for my Toronto Maple Leaf. There we

James D'Annibale: Go.

Sarah Buszka: Thank you both so much for joining us on today's episode. It is just a pleasure and an honor to have you here. Thank you all.

James D'Annibale: Thank you for having us. Thanks