Fostering Brave Space: Reflections on Brené Brown's Dare to Lead

Wes Johnson: Welcome to the EDUCAUSE Rising Voices podcast, where we amplify the voices of young professionals in higher education. I'm Wes Johnson, and I'm joined by the amazing, the awesome

Sarah Buszka: Sarah Buszka. Thanks Wes.

Wes Johnson: Yep. And we're your co-host for the show. We're members and friends of the Ed College Young Professionals Advisory Committee, also known as ypac. And today we're going to be talking everything, Brene Brown, because that's the big thing of the conference, or one of course, we're really the big thing that being higher ed, but we are joined by a couple of guests here. Sarah, do you want to introduce?

Sarah Buszka: Yes, absolutely. Thank you so much, Wes. So we are so thrilled to introduce two of our guests today. Nicole B, did I do that right with the Italian? Yes, Ashley Valentine. Nicole is the strategic activator at Beyond Academics, leveraging her strengths and seeing patterns where others see complexity. To develop human-centered strategies that inspire action across higher ed. Nicole leads with curiosity and authenticity and is passionate about restoring the lost art of human connection in the networked age. In her free time, you can find her hosting gatherings accompanied by her signature cheese and charcuterie boards and or bothering her fluffy, grumpy face. Orange cat. Ziggy, I can't attest. He does have a grumpy face. I saw a picture. Welcome Nicole.

Nicole Baldassarre:  Thank you for having me.

Sarah Buszka: Yes. And we're also thrilled to introduce Ashley. Ashley is a senior cybersecurity engineer with the University of Illinois at work. She enjoys the challenge of keeping up with her cyber threats and learning new technologies. And outside of work, she enjoys hiking with her dog and trying new recipes. Welcome Ashley. So good to have both of you here. Thank you. So to kick

Wes Johnson: Before we jump into the usual, Sarah, I want to ask, because we all just got through the start of fall semester, or at least progressing through the start of fall semester, we should clap it up higher-ed made it through another year.

Sarah Buszka: Made it

Wes Johnson: Through another year. Everybody doing okay? We all make it through. Okay.

Sarah Buszka: Depends on who's asking and what time of day.

Wes Johnson: Always like to check, shout out to all our frontline service warriors out there that do all we can to keep the campus running, but I like to check in with everybody at the start of the semester. So Nicole, you're doing good.

Nicole Baldassarre:  Yes, doing good. Supporting our clients in that first semester and getting everybody off doing that important work.

Wes Johnson: Ashley, you doing good?

Ashley Valentijn: Yeah, we're doing pretty well. I'm usually shielded from the start of the semester as much from within my department.

Wes Johnson: Alright then. So now sorry Sarah, I cut you off. We can go with the rest of the show.

Sarah Buszka: Oh no, that's okay. Wes, I was just so excited to ask our favorite question on this show. For our listeners who've been following us, we always kick things off by asking our guests, what is your superpower? And Ashley, would you like to go first?

Ashley Valentijn: Sure. I actually cheated a bit and asked one of my friends. I couldn't come up with anything and she actually came up with a really good one. She said that probably chameleon powers, because I'm very good at adapting to new environments, new situations, and new

Sarah Buszka: People. I love that we have a chameleon on the show today.

Ashley Valentijn: How did you come up with that? Within She did it within five seconds. I was like, okay,

Sarah Buszka: That's a great one. That really is. Well, and especially Wes mentioned the beginning of the semester quarter, everyone's feeling the stress, so you are a chameleon. You've adapted to it. That's awesome. Thanks for sharing. And Nicole, what is your superpower?

Nicole Baldassarre:  I did not prepare for this beforehand, but I think for me it's probably resourcefulness. I think if I'm in a pinch, I'm really able to pull things together in these high stress complex situations. Even if it's three ingredients left in my fridge, how am I going to make a meal out of that? I'll be able to pull it together real quick and figure it out on the fly. So a very resourceful gal.

Sarah Buszka: I love that we have resourceful chameleons on the show today. I feel like we should use AI and create some cool artwork with that. Yes, sure. Well, to kind of set the stage before we dive into our discussion today, I want to give a shout out to the Young Professionals Community Group co-led by Joseph Coddle and Arja Fernandez for hosting the first ever YPCG book club last month. It was very successful and that's why we have Nicole and Ashley here as guests because they participated in that inaugural book club event and the focus was on, as Wes said, Brene Brown's book, Dare to Lead. We're focusing on Brene because she is the guest speaker main event, if you will. Well, my main event for the upcoming Edge cause annual conference this year in San Antonio, Texas, we all, or most of us know how awesome Brene is. Just an incredible researcher kind of bringing to light things about leadership that we haven't really talked about that much with respect to shame and vulnerability and how we lead with integrity in a full heart, those types of concepts. So I can say in our book club, we had some really great conversations and I'm really excited to bring that to light here for our audience today. To kick things off, I'm curious, Nicole, how has the book influenced your perspective on leadership?

Nicole Baldassarre:  I think for me it kind of cracked the human side wide open in the professional context. I think sometimes we can be so focused on being perceived a certain way and not having weaknesses come to the surface that in reading Dare to Lead, it really enhanced my view of it's okay to be vulnerable and sometimes it's scary to bring up issues and challenges even in my personal life in a professional setting. But these are the kinds of conversations that actually promote a culture of trust. And if you don't have trust, you're not going to have a very successful team or organization, what have you. And yeah, I just think it's that removing of the veil between we are humans in a very hyper productive workplace industry, but let's put that at the center because that's actually what powers the growth within our organizations.

Sarah Buszka: Well said. You sound just like Brene. I love it. Renee, we're all disciples here. I hope she hears this because we are. And Ashley, what about you? How has the book influenced your perspective on leadership?

Ashley Valentijn: I think probably the idea that each person, each person can narrow down their values into only two of them. And depending on that person's two values is how you would choose to interact with them or connect with them. I think that helped inspire what I thought specifically of leadership. A lot of the whole armored versus daring leadership I have had to discover myself, kind of stumbled upon. But I think the living up to your own values, one was a new chapter for me.

Sarah Buszka: I agree. That section was very profound for me too, actually. And I remember in the book Brene talks about it saying, challenging us to really define it to two. And I know also, I don't know if y'all felt this way, but when I started doing that exercise, I struggled. It was so hard. I had a list of 50 things and I'm like, but these all matter, right? How do you narrow that down? But I'm curious, Ashley, maybe to kind of follow up, how did you narrow that down? And if you are willing to share, which two values did you land on?

Ashley Valentijn: I'll say I haven't completely narrowed it down yet. I do know at least one of them is just growth in general. I think I put a very high importance on whether that's in your career or in your personal life or just solving your Rubik's cube faster and breaking your record, any type of growth at that point. I know I put a very high importance on that.

Sarah Buszka: That's really interesting that you share that, Ashley, because Wes and I have now been co-hosting the show for just about a year. And I would say the number one that we've heard from all of our young professional guests is growth. There's a huge focus on it for us. So thank you for sharing that and for validating us. I guess in our quest to amplify these voices. It's really great to hear that there is some consistency and we all seem to share a theme around growth.

Wes Johnson: Speaking of additional things learned, Nicole, I'll turn back to you. Are there any qualities that come to mind that maybe you were aspired to implement into your own professional journey from the book?

Nicole Baldassarre:  Yeah, I think to touch back on Ashley's point about values to think long and hard about narrowing down those two that really hit home for me. I think something that's guided my professional path and had me feel like I can trust others. Authenticity, that's a big one for me. If you can be genuinely yourself around others and not feel judged or shame, which we know Brene talks about all the time, I gravitate towards those people that act like a light in their organization because they are being themselves and you can feel that we know when people are faking it. And then the second one kind of has to touch on Ashley's with growth, but I would say mindfulness because it brings that lens of self-awareness and empathy wrapped into it. What I like to do, I like to have 10 that actually just roll up into two, so it kind of counts, but that comes mindfulness. Yeah, I would say a lot of the times people don't practice that self-awareness. And I think the self-awareness is what fuels the authenticity. So these two go hand in hand really well and have acted as a filter for me in my career and the people that I interact with and want to work for, but also I try to exemplify those values in everything that I'm doing. So that would be the big takeaway for me on the values piece.

Wes Johnson: Absolutely. And another plus one, speaking of growth has been a theme. Authenticity has also been a theme across many of our episodes from young professional to those more senior enrolled being authentic, leading from their own values, very similar. I'm saying the Brene Brown playbook.

Nicole Baldassarre:  It's timely, right? Because AI is so huge right now, and it's not like it just came here last year. It's been around for 20, 30 years. It's just now become accessible. And even thinking about podcasting right now, you can put a document into notebook LLM and it'll create a podcast that sounds legit like it's on NPR. So how can we bring authenticity back to the forefront of the conversation? And it's so important for our industry being in education, how can we filter this for others and set the example for our students, for our staff, our communities. I could talk about this all day.

Sarah Buszka: That's why we have you and Ashley on the show because you both have wonderful ideas, our resourceful chameleons. Ashley, do you have anything you'd like to

Ashley Valentijn: Add? No, I think Nicole covered it. I'll say that I feel like self-awareness is probably on the, I think she called it the second circle in the book of values, because I mean, you can't really grow or you're not going to grow anywhere important if you're not.

Sarah Buszka: Yes. Well said. Thank you, Wes. And now I interrupted you we're both so excited to dive in. We're like a little while, Sarah,

Speaker 5: I missed

Wes Johnson: Y'all.

Sarah Buszka: We're all hanging in there by a thread during this fall crunch season.

Wes Johnson: So I guess I'll start with Ashley. So we talked about growth, being authentic, so you have these tools, but I imagine at least I can speak on my own career and it's kind of me in the book, we can get on the topic of being brave and there's this balance of fear and courage to display some of those very qualities that we're talking about. So Ashley, the real question being how do you balance fear and courage in your professional journey?

Ashley Valentijn: That is definitely a hard question. It definitely helps the environment that I'm currently in. I think just because I've been in situations where we've had armored leadership in previous positions, but the group that I'm currently working with is very good about doing daring leadership, whether that is and transparency becoming being clear, or if it's also just having the courage to admit that something is wrong. They don't know what direction they're going in, et cetera. So I think the culture where I'm currently at makes it very easy to be able to balance fear and courage.

Wes Johnson: Absolutely. So I'm hearing a little bit of, there's our individual values that we bring, but it helps a lot more. The culture of the environment you're in also supports that same environment and those qualities and values. Absolutely. A hundred percent agree. Nicole, do you have anything to add to that?

Nicole Baldassarre:  Yeah, I think playing off of what Ashley just said, if leaders are more concerned with having all the right answers versus prompting the right questions, that's a red flag to me. You know what I mean? It's more important that we are questioning things because I think that is what brings a level of trust. It's not like, oh, I'm the expert top down. I know everything. It's how do you empower your team and create that of care and transparency so that they do feel like they can speak up? Or if they are scared, it's a little bit mediated because my boss might not know what they're doing either, and they're not afraid to admit it, right? We're all here to work on the same challenges as a team. Even if you are an individual contributor, what is that sight line to the vision for your team? So I think if we want to dive into trust and really pick that apart through the lens of Brene, that's something I'm fascinated by because it becomes this chicken or the egg. Do I have to have trust to be vulnerable or does vulnerability promote trust? And how do we navigate that in our own lives and organizations? That's something I'd love for us to explore and unpack together today. Let's do it.

Sarah Buszka: What do you think?

Nicole Baldassarre:  Well, to me, it's interesting because Renee has the seven behaviors that build trust, but she also pulls from the work of others where there's an assessment of the domains of trust. So you have this, here are the behaviors, and here's my checks and balances on how to assess those behaviors. And for those that are not familiar or haven't read the book, I think the seven behaviors are something like boundaries, reliability, accountability vault was one of them. Integrity. And then I have something written over here. It's that braving acronym, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Non-judgment, braving. Yeah, generosity. The braving acronym. So those are her behaviors that build trust over time. But the work that she references, like her favorite definition of trust, lemme find his name, Charles Feldman. So his framework to assess the domains of trust are actually around care, sincerity, integrity and reliability. And that's where you get into things.

Nicole Baldassarre:  Do they have my best interest in mind? Are they emotionally honest? Are they walking the talk? Do they have clear and complete requests? So I like bringing these two things together because now you have a way to wrap your mind and make sense of, okay, here are the behaviors and here's how I can assess those behaviors to know that this person is trustworthy. They might miss the mark on one, but are they exhibiting these others? And then how can I intervene to then get my trust meter back up? That's something that I really gravitated towards. I like the tangible frameworks that I can apply.

Sarah Buszka: Oh yeah, absolutely. Thank you for sharing that. I agree. I think many of us agree. We want tangible frameworks too. You give us the tangible framework, right? Right. I mean, it's great to talk about things in theory, and it's great to understand that from a conceptual level, but how do we apply this? So kind of kicking the question maybe over to you, Ashley. I'm curious, how do you apply these approaches and what Nicole just shared in your practice, or maybe the converses, how do you see your leadership doing that?

Ashley Valentijn: Well, part of it, again, building trust. I think that marble jar theory that Brene Brown

Ashley Valentijn: Described as far as taking small actions and having those building trust, and then if you, betrayal sounds like a strong word, but if you lose that trust with one of those actions, it can take out a lot of marbles at once. I think that was also something that Melinda Gates had been quoted in the book. But yeah, I think generally just those very small actions of trust and showing a vulnerability with boundaries within reason, of course is, I dunno, a very good example of doing things like that. So I don't know. I feel like I'm probably going to keep that marble jar theory in mind for quite a while now, thinking maybe having just a metaphysical marble jar in my mind and thinking, oh, that's one marble, or, oh, great, we're going to take out 10 of them now. But

Sarah Buszka: Yeah, I love that. Maybe we all need to have marble jars on our desks and have resourceful chameleons in them or something. I don't know. Good visuals. Right.

Nicole Baldassarre:  Well, I think it's interesting too, because y'all are in the IT cyber, like Ashley's defending against threats and coming up with strategies in her day-to-day works. So your entire root of what you do is around trust and how to foster that trust probably through systems and architecture and all of these things, but it also lends itself to human trust. How do you do that within your org, even though your role is to do it with the machines and systems that you're using? So you're at this unique intersection of truly a trust focused environment. And I don't know Wes and Sarah if that's similar for both of you, but I find that intersection fascinating.

Sarah Buszka: Do you want to response that,

Nicole Baldassarre:  Ashley?

Sarah Buszka: Yeah. Oh yeah, absolutely. Go ahead.

Ashley Valentijn: Sure. Yeah, actually cybersecurity has a lot more of the human element than I think a lot of people realize. We're a fairly decentralized campus, so there's only so much we can do from the central IT group. We rely a lot on our IT partners throughout campus, and that requires building a trust relationship with each and every one of them. And also that goes part into building the cybersecurity culture around campus. And a lot of places have cybersecurity offices that have a bad rep, in particular in higher education. It's very different from private industry where you can enforce a lot of specific rules and policies that people have to follow versus higher education where you have to work with people in order to get those policies put in place. But yeah, cybersecurity. I know it varies from campus to campus, but I know that there used to be a history of the cybersecurity being the office of, no, no one would ever know about the cybersecurity. Nobody wants that office. Yeah. Yeah. So that was a huge, there was no trust relationship whatsoever. When you have that reputation and taking your office from being the office of no, when people would only ever hear about you when you're literally vetoing whatever they're trying to do. And going from that to building trust relationships to the fact where you have people who are cybersecurity conscious all around campus, it's a big undertaking. And it definitely, I mean, there would have to be a million of those marble jars all around campus for each individual person.

Wes Johnson: Yeah, absolutely. Ashley, I can say from a IT support perspective, there's the trust. We deal with those little marbles over time. And then sometimes I just trust that the community will forgive me in time because we have to do something. Not my fault. I have to know. So absolutely, there's both of deposit and withdrawal of that marble jar to support our campuses and our communities. And so plus a thousand to everything you've said. So with that, I'm curious then. So we've talked a little bit about environment, individual values that seem to have grown after reading the book, which is excellent. We knew this, this is Renee Brown, but I'm curious in regards to, let's talk about some of that environment. So we have our individual values and they work best in an environment, a culture that supports that. What role do you see, and I'll start with Nicole, do you see in young professionals, those earlier in their career contributing to that environment? What's their role to play?

Nicole Baldassarre:  Yeah, that's a good question, Wes. To me, can we just boil it down to be a good person? I mean, seriously, I don't care what level you're at. You're a young, professional, mid-level manager. You are the leader, the CIO, whatever it might be, just be a good human and carry those two values. I'll even let you have four or five values, you know what I mean? Carry those with you and truly act out of not your own best interest, but the interest of your values aligned with that of the organizations. And I think you'll succeed. And if it means that you might butt heads from time to time, I think it's the conflict when managed mindfully, that helps us expand and grow as well and become better communicators. I'm not saying put your head down and be a yes person. And I'm not saying go be bullish and fight with everybody to get your way. Just truly stick to your values, whatever those might be, and try to be a shepherd of those values in a way that contributes positively to your organization. We don't have to be mean. We can build each other up. We can be cheerleaders for each other, and we can create the culture that we want to work in if we just act as an extension of that vision. Does that make sense?

Sarah Buszka: Yeah, that does person, and it feels better to support people and celebrate them than the opposite, right? And I don't know about y'all, but I don't need any more negative energy in my life. So I agree with you wholeheartedly, Nicole. It feels better to celebrate others too and to help amplify others' voices,

Nicole Baldassarre:  Right? Rising voices, you know what I

Sarah Buszka: Mean? Yes. You picked it up.

Wes Johnson: Let's see. So Ashley, then, what advice would you give another young professional that wants to embrace the principles we've discussed today or others we maybe haven't gotten to from the book?

Ashley Valentijn: I think implementing the braving acronym that Nicole brought up earlier is huge. Just being able to build trust with others and then also, especially the boundary section, I think is important for people that are just entering the workforce. It's a little hard to draw boundaries, especially with newer people that have already been in the workforce before. And I know that's something that I've stumbled on before when I first entered the workforce as far as that. I think also that learning to rise section was incredibly important because that was essentially how to get up after you fall down.

Nicole Baldassarre:  That's a good one,

Ashley Valentijn: Which I think bene had a more eloquent way of putting it. But basically, if you're going to take risks and be a daring leader, you're going, am I allowed to curse on this all through the book? I was like, you go for it. Not, we'll edit it out. You're going to get your ass kicked at some point. Yes. Basically, you basically, you're going to fall at some point and you learn how to get back up.

Sarah Buszka: Yeah, I love that. And I love how she framed it too, and I think the way she did it was great about being in the arena

Speaker 5: And

Sarah Buszka: Learning how to listen to the voices that you need to listen to and to see that there will be other voices. And to recognize that if they're not in the arena with you, well maybe you don't need to listen to those, right? Or don't take it so

Ashley Valentijn: Personally

Sarah Buszka: And don't take it so personally, right? Yeah, absolutely.

Ashley Valentijn: Oh yeah. And then there was also that section about learning. I think that was probably part of the arena. One, there's people in the cheap seats. You need to be able to, and they're just heckling at you, and you need to learn to determine which people are in the cheap seats and whose opinions you should ignore or not take or just take with a grain of salt.

Sarah Buszka: Right, exactly. Instead of letting it all hit you with full force and then feeling pummeled and not knowing how to navigate through it, and that kind of circles, which

Nicole Baldassarre:  All guilty of, right?

Sarah Buszka: Yeah. Yeah. And that circles back though, to knowing your values, knowing who you are, knowing where you stand, so that when you do hear all those things, when you're in the arena, you have a north star to help keep you moving in that cardinal direction that you've defined for yourself. I can't wait for Brene to listen to this. I hope you do Brene. No, please do. Please. Well, we've covered a lot of ground today. Thanks, Wes. We're on the same page today. So we've covered a lot of ground today. And to wrap things up, one question we love to ask our guests to kind of bookend everything is if there is one key takeaway or message or lesson that you want to leave the audience with, please share. Nicole, let's start with you.

Nicole Baldassarre:  One thing I would leave with folks today, I'm just going to keep it simple. Again, just be human. I think leading with the uniquely human qualities and skills, it's not about knowledge anymore. We can all be a subject matter expert. We have the access to the technology and the books and everything, but if you can lean into what makes you uniquely, you started this podcast with superpowers, right? Even if that's asking a colleague or a friend, Hey, what would you say my superpower is? And then using that to your point, Sarah, as a North star and guiding you and what you do and how you can better serve your team and your organization and yourself. I think that would be my biggest takeaway.

Sarah Buszka: That's a really good one. Thank you for sharing. And Ashley, do you have any final words that you would like to share with the audience?

Ashley Valentijn: I think just taking Brene's idea of people. People are just people, even if they are a C level executive or someone else, that you being able to see a person through that lens. They're not just their job title. They also have this whole other outside life, and being able to understand that I think is a really valuable lesson to learn.

Sarah Buszka: That's so good. Thank you both for just sharing your insights, laughing with us, bearing with us today. This has been so fun. We really appreciate having you guys on the show. Thank you.

Nicole Baldassarre:  Thank you,

Sarah Buszka: Thank

Wes Johnson: You. All right, y'all, so Edco 2024 is right around the corner. Me and Sarah are going to give you some tips. We're very excited to be able to see the higher ed community at the place to be every year, ed, cause 2024. And so again, we want to give y'all some quick tips based on our experience. Some of us here are veterans of the Edco space, but we saw, and we heard from edco that somewhere around 40% of you will be brand new. And so we wanted to give you something, so I'm going to kick it off. First off, do not miss the keynote speakers. We all know that as much as we love each other and we love all the things we got going on, we want to see Dne Brown and the other speakers. So do not miss it. You might not get a seat if you don't get there in time, just to be honest with you.

Wes Johnson: Next step, you want to keep up with what you got going on. Ed Cost does have an events app is available. From my knowledge, I believe it's on iOS and Android. I don't think this event's up quite yet, but maybe by the time you see this recording, it will be, you can schedule the different sessions, events that you want to see. It usually has a map that kind of helps you be prepared to be lost anyway, unless you're from San Antonio and you've been in the building, it's part of the event, but it is a great app. But do not stick to that is an adventure when you get out there. If you see something that catches your eye, go for it. This is your time or the year to get the information you feel you need most, whether that be info or networking. And speaking of, I'll pass it over to Sarah. What other tips do we have?

Sarah Buszka: Thank you so much, Wes. In the spirit of today's episode for Brene Brown, I would say be brave. This is going to be a huge conference, especially since 40% of you have identified as first timers. No matter what your age is, no matter if your early career, mid career, late career, and this is your first time at this conference, it will feel overwhelming at times. There's a lot of folks. There is a massive vendor area where you will see huge, big, yeah, big signs, lots of people calling your name. You're going to see people all over. You'll be in a new city if you're not from San Antonio. So be brave. Introduce yourself to folks, find your people, and to help find your people. We are so thrilled to have some special spaces for you to engage and connect with us too. Most notably, the Young Professionals Hub or YP Hub.

Sarah Buszka: We've been doing this for a few years now, and it's just an incredible place to find your people, to find some connection, to find a place where it doesn't feel like there's 10,000 people in the room and there's just maybe 10 of your friends in this year's space in the San Antonio Conference Center is gorgeous, and there's going to be a lot of really fun things planned. So if you feel overwhelmed by anything or if you're just curious and want to meet new people, please look for the YP Hub in the app that Wes mentioned. And there also will be signs. It's also a very big room, so it's very likely that you'll run into it at some point. But also there's going to be a ton of networking events and sessions that will be led by young professionals. You'll find that in your app.

Sarah Buszka: Since I am from Wisconsin, I want to give a plug for my favorite event that will be happening, the Happy hour on Wednesday. Come get your drink tickets earlier that day for the YPCG meetup and come meet us in the YP Hub for a happy hour on Wednesday. There's also going to be a CG extravaganza, so if you're curious to learn more about what the ypac is, what the YPCG is, what all these acronyms are that we're throwing around and all these advisory groups, and if you really want to learn how to engage, please consider coming to that CG Extravaganza two. It's also on Wednesday. And finally, we are so excited to be recording our episode, our next episode in Person live in San Antonio, so we welcome you to join us for that event. There will be an audience, so you can join us and be in the audience and interact with us and see us do this live because we do do it live every time. Wes,

Wes Johnson: We single time

Sarah Buszka: Every single time. Yes. All right. Well, thank you all so much. Looking forward to seeing you in San Antonio.

Wes Johnson: See you, ed.

Speaker 5: Thank you for joining us for another episode of Rising Voices, a podcast from Edco Review.

Sarah Buszka: This episode was produced by Jerry Bain, Chris Bradney, and Joseph Coddle. With a help from Ryan Lottie and Monica Rosen. Our music is from West Johnson.

Speaker 5: Please find us on the edco Platform, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcast. Be sure to subscribe and rate us.

Sarah Buszka: Also, email us at Rising [email protected].