Women in Tech

Wes Johnson: Welcome to the EDUCAUSE Rising Voices podcast where we amplify the voices of young professionals in higher education. I'm Wes Johnson and I'm joined by the amazing, the fabulous, the great.

Sarah Buszka: Come on, keep going. I'm kidding. I'm going to get efficient. You got to get efficient. I love it. We're efficient today, folks. I'm Sarah Buskin, your other co-host for the show.

Wes Johnson: That's right. We're your co-host for the show and we're members and friends of EDUCAUSE Young Professionals Advisory Committee, also known as WYPAC, WYPAC, with Up. Sarah, what are we talking about today?

Sarah Buszka: We're talking about a real exciting topic. Well, I say that every time I introduce a topic. However, I'm going to introduce this topic today by actually telling a story. I'm kind of segueing from what we typically do on the show, but I think our listeners will appreciate this because I think it so appropriately grounds the topic of today's conversation and why we're even having it in 2026. So to set the stage, I attended a conference this week and the topics were kind of talking about the impact of the American economy, what's happening globally right now. I'm intentionally being a little vague because the story I'm sharing will have a very poignant story and purpose. However, I was in this conference and there were about a couple hundred folks in the room and throughout the day there was a main stage and maybe about like 15 to 25 speakers who were on that stage throughout the entire day. And of those 15, 25 speakers, only three didn't look like all of the others. And what was interesting to me is throughout the day I kept hearing folks reference some study to justify the comments and the positions that were being made throughout the day. And these were topics around technology, energy, economics, things like that. And they kept referencing a specific study and I hadn't heard about the study before and there's a lot of studies. So I kept hearing it and I figured, okay, I'm going to actually, I'm going to look this up. I'm curious to see what it says. And I was researching, trying to find this study and it turns out, at least to the best of my knowledge, that the study that was being referenced over and over throughout the day was actually just a Twitter or X comment from a pretty loud personality on that platform. And I thought it was fascinating because I was in a room filled with a lot of folks who just look like each other and I was very much a minority in that room. I was one of, I would say probably very few women in that room of hundreds of folks. I had this thought of, wow, I think I'm in an echo chamber. And I'm not saying that to be rude. I'm saying that because I think that happens a lot now in society. We have so many tools and technology that enables us to self-select and to go into those types of spaces. And I'm not here to say if it's right or wrong, but I am here to say what I noticed was one comment being repeated over and over and over and over again and it had morphed into something that it wasn't. And I thought that was just really fascinating. I'm really bringing this here because diversity of thought matters. I wonder if we had other perspectives on the stage if we would have had a more thoughtful or nuanced conversation that had frankly just more interesting information and nuggets in it besides a repeated Twitter post. So why I'm bringing that up is today we have two, I would say titans in industry here in higher education. I'm saying that very intentionally because we have had I think the opportunity as YPAC, as young professionals, and for me as a woman in IT to be shaped and supported and mentored and sponsored by some incredible leaders in our community and specifically some women leaders in our community that I would love to give attention to. And one of those is the singular, none other than Cathy Bates herself. And I know many listeners of this show know who she is so I don't feel like I need to give an introduction, but I will share her bio because she's just so incredible. Cathy is a servant leader, a mentor, a community builder whose career has shaped higher education, IT from the inside out. And we do not say that lightly. I think everybody listening to this show who's in the EDUCAUSE community can agree to that. From her time as a CIO at Appalachian State University to her years leading the strategic team at Vantage Technology Consulting, she's a longtime EDUCAUSE contributor. She authored the widely used IT governance toolkit and co-founded the Vantage Leadership Lounge, a mentorship program that continues to develop the next generation of higher ed IT leaders. And I was one of those inaugural members and participants and it's actually where I met Cathy officially. And as she's now stepped into retirement, he legacy continues empowering teams, building community and championing people first leadership and lives across the field. So Cathy, welcome to the show.

Cathy Bates: Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.

Sarah Buszka: We're thrilled to have you. And our other guest who I'm also very excited to introduce because she's taking on and carrying on, I should say, the YPAC leadership legacy, which I say that intentionally as well. I think this has always been a group of folks who are doing great things in our community and going to great heights. It's Nicole Sevitsky. She is a business intelligence analyst at Montgomery County Community College, where she creates college-wide reports that deliver key insights for decision makers at the college. Institutional impact, so exciting. And Nicole also leads projects that improve processes and grows data literacy throughout the college and she serves as the chair of the communications team at WYPAC. So would Nicole, welcome to the show.

Nicole Levitsky: Thank you so much. I'm happy to be here.

Wes Johnson: So Nicole- Thrilled to have you. Starting with you, what is your superpower?

Nicole Levitsky: I've kind of really thought about this because I used to think my superpower was patience. A lot of people would throw tougher individuals to me to handle tougher situations because I had a lot of patience, but I found as I kind of grown in my career that I find active listening is a very superpower for me. I've had a lot of colleagues or end users understand that I'm there to help them through if they're trying to work through a problem or they're not quite sure what their problem is. Being really engaged in that conversation and truly listening to help them come to a solution or come to an aha moment I think has really been where I've seen my superpower go as I've grown in my career.

Wes Johnson: Well, that's awesome. I'm curious, I'm going off a tangent a little bit. Have you found that your patience superpower that you were going to mention at first, has that gotten stronger or weaker over time as you've had to practice it?

Nicole Levitsky: I think it's held pretty steady. I'm prety flexible and adaptable to certain situations and I find I've always been very calm in high stress situations. I don't think it's changed so much. I think it's just kind of held steady, but I've just applied it maybe in different ways than when I was younger.

Wes Johnson: That's awesome. I might have to talk to you after the show. Cathy, same question. What is your superpower?

Cathy Bates: I think my superpower might be connecting people. I think it's something that I just naturally do. In fact, just met Nicole and I already feel like I want to connect you with some people. I love connecting people. I just feel like we can learn so much from each other and I just meet so many people that are really cool and I love the idea of being able to put cool people together and continue great conversations and widen people's perspectives. So yes, I have a good friend, Rajmi Radakrishnan, who calls me a human API.

Sarah Buszka: I think that's so apropos for you, Cathy, truly. I can say firsthand, you have introduced me to so many folks over the years and I'll just get random emails from you in my inbox like, "Hey, I'm introducing you guys. I think you have a great conversation. Have fun." And it's awesome. And I think having more of that, that's the diversity of thought aspects in particular I appreciate, especially related to the story I've shared because you're intentionally doing that. And I think sometimes we all just need that little step. So I agree. If you could have an award for being that connector, we would give it to you. We are giving it to you. Consider that's what we're giving to you on the show today. So maybe Cathy, keeping you on the mic for a second here, I'd love for you to kind of set the stage and looking back at your career for us and is there one thing that you wish someone had told you early on about navigating IT as a woman that you would like to share with our listeners?

Cathy Bates: It's interesting. I think when I jumped into IT, I jumped in on a side that was really quite male dominated. It was more like on the infrastructure side. My first position was in telecom and networking and I sort of stayed on that side where you might see more men than women. We have different teams in IT and some teams have more women on them, some have more men on them. I landed on the one with more men right away and I seemed to have stayed there for most of the time that I was in teams. I think one thing that was just really clear to me right away, and I didn't know this going in, but I learned it really fast and that is that it felt like the male members of the team were given respect and believed in right away when they landed in a new position. And women were more tested and you needed to earn that respect and that's something that was different. I realized that it was important to right off the block get there because the longer you took to get there, the more of an impact that made. So you needed to find value and provide value and earn that respect pretty quick.

Sarah Buszka: Absolutely. Yeah. I'm nodding viciously because that pretty much echoes my early career experience too. But I'm curious from your perspective, Nicole, what do you think? Is what Cathy's saying resonating with you now from your perspective? Have things changed or is this landing one for one with you like it is with me?

Nicole Levitsky: It's definitely resonating with me. I do have to say I'm very fortunate because at Monco I entered into a pretty split female male IT group. We were led by a woman. Celeste Schwartz was our VP for the longest time and she really kind of helped set that tone. And I had to have a lot of conversations with her where she was echoing a lot of what Cathy was saying where you have to provide that value and you had to get there quickly. And I think that I'm just grateful for me to be able to enter an IT space that is more heavily populated with women and not having to face all of the same struggles that other women had to before me like Trailblazers like you, Cathy, or my former VP, they really allowed the younger generations to not have to always meet that hardship or meet those ceilings in the same way. It's still obviously there. I think it's still a conversation and experience that a lot of women are facing. We heard from a young woman in an EDUCAUSE annual session last year that we did who was facing that similar structure because she was the solo female in her IT space. So it's still there, but I think it depends on the environment that you're in and the people who have come before you kind of help shaping what you're experiencing. So yeah, I can see both sides where it's still kind of present, but there's also been a lot of gain ways happening that from other women who have paved the way for us.

Sarah Buszka: Absolutely. And I just want to give a quick shout out and kudos to all of those other women who have paved the way, Celeste, Schwartz, the folks and the men too, and everyone else who is recognizing that and paving the way and not only talking about it but doing something about it, walking their talk, having their organization structured the way yours is, Nicole, I think is a very intentional and very leaderful and strategic thing to do. And I'm thrilled to hear that your experience has changed. I think that shows a collective impact that we've had and I'm excited by that.

Wes Johnson: So going back to you, Cathy, over your career, given thankfully we're hearing evidence that things are improving over time, but going back to earlier in your career, how did you handle being underestimated and did your approach to that change over time?

Cathy Bates: Yeah, I think in terms of that, you just want to be confident as quickly as you can. And over time, I have tried to ameliorate how much I bring that forward because I feel like we shouldn't have to be this way. So I will say in my career, I did this and I hope you don't have to do this is what I say because I hope times have changed that we are a little bit more patient with people, that we see people for who they are, that we're willing to see that people are competent, that they can do things and to give them a chance instead of coming from a preconceived notion that maybe they don't and they have to prove it. And so I think for me though, being early on pioneering some of those roles, having roles where there weren't women, many women at all before me in them, you really did have to prove yourself. And I think you have to be careful how you do that. You have to bring people in. You can't just come in and mow over everybody in an attempt to show who you are. So I think that you have to get to know people, you have to understand what they need. You have to be able to show that you are competent, very confident, and provide value as quickly as you can.

Sarah Buszka: So how did you do that, Cathy? What's one little nugget? How did you provide that value or signify that? Were there certifications that you just focused on getting? Was it projects that you were taking on? What did those steps look like? And was there anyone that you felt like had the highest impact or highest value or biggest bang for your buck, if you will?

Cathy Bates: Right, right. So an early example of that, I was a telecom and networking director at a university, and this was at the time when information security was just rising in the '90s. And I remember I was part of a group that was working on an information security policy for our whole system in the state. All of the sections that people were writing were sort of divvied out among all of the people who were part of the work group and I didn't get the ones that had any meat in them at all, not surprising And interesting. But after we finished that security policy and it became time to put together the security processes at our university, I led that at our university and I can remember doing an assessment, a very in- depth assessment. And I think that's one of the things that I bring to the tables. I'm very analytical and so I will go deep and there won't be any question about the confidence when I'm done. I'll be quiet about it, but you bring it forward and it's sort of a very complete assessment and it became a real blueprint for how we were going to handle information security, which the other campuses then looked at and said, oh, let's see what Cathy did over here.

Sarah Buszka: Of course they did. Yes, they did. Well, and it sounds like another superpower of yours in there is, like you said, you're very analytical, but you made sure that what you were doing was correct, that was validated, that was stackable, buildable, scalable, what have you, so that the impact could be felt not only by your organization but by many.

Cathy Bates: Yes, absolutely. Because you have to sell it to your own organization and many of the people inside your organization, you're still proving yourself to them. You're trying to get the folks who are running the systems and the network to understand their role in information security and principles that they need to start following that they maybe haven't adopted yet, right?

Sarah Buszka: Right. That's tough. So Nicole, I'm curious from your perspective, do you feel underestimated in your position in your organization given that it might not look like how Cathy's experience was? And do you have a strategy for navigating that? Has it changed over time? How are you feeling about this?

Nicole Levitsky: Yeah, I think coming into a new role as a young professional definitely can feel a little bit undervalued because of not just being a woman, but maybe also your age is being something that is being questioned on your expertise. I definitely have felt that, especially because I present very young when I'm dealing with entering a new role. I think how I've handled that is making sure that I'm using my voice. I think that's something I've struggled with a lot coming into new positions or into new roles is making sure my voice is being heard in meetings. I'm saying yes to things that will allow me to not only help my institution but grow personally and professionally. I think a lot of times we feel like as young professionals that we aren't always in the rooms where decisions are being made or we're not a part of conversations that are shaping certain projects and we feel like we don't have the confidence to speak up when you have an idea or you have maybe a solution to something or even just to question something. I think in my role, especially with my team, we're very also analytical and so we question things all the time. We have to question the data. Is that data right? Is that question correct? And so when we start working outside of our team, I think sometimes we've gotten even some pushback because people aren't used to being questioned. And I think sometimes you also get that pushback when it's coming from somebody who might be younger or in a less decision-making role. So I think I've kind of managed that by just making sure that the way I'm framing those pushbacks and the language I'm using, understanding the communication and who I'm communicating to really helps me navigate those situations. I think just making sure you're aware of your institution and who's in your institution and who might be your influencers, who you can build relationships with, who can help you make some of those conversations or those projects go a little bit smoother. I think Cathy touched on this where you have to get the, you're not just proving it yourself, proving it to the institution. It's kind of like that whole getting them on board to understand why this project matters or why this decision matters. So it's really knowing who is on your team and building those relationships is kind of how I've approached that.

Sarah Buszka: Absolutely. I want to double click on something quickly because you mentioned I'm saying yes to things. I'm taking on these opportunities to have my voice be heard, to be visible. And I want to give you kudos because you have said yes to become the chair of communications for the YPAC, which is a leadership position on the team and doing things like that undoubtedly will give you that experience, but then you get the exposure too. And every one of those things that you're saying yes to with intentionality, because if you say yes to everything, nothing's a priority. However, you're choosing those leadership positions and making sure you're visible. And so I want to give you kudos for that because I think we can take up space. We deserve to take up space. We deserve to do that just as much as anyone, especially when you're positioned so well for it and you're doing a great job at it. Everyone benefits from that.

Wes Johnson: So staying on you for a second, Nicole, you've touched on a couple of things, both you and Cathy about some of the things you've done.You've proved it through the work, you've taken on opportunities, you put yourself out there, but in my mind also, you need the opportunity, you have to be invited to or given that opportunity to do those things.You're saying yes to something. So what has been the role of sponsorship and mentorship and enabling that for you starting with you, Nicole? How important has that been in your institution for your opportunities?

Nicole Levitsky: I think it's been really important because if you don't have somebody who sees your potential or who's willing to help you grow your potential, it can be kind of isolating and it can feel like you don't exactly know which step to take next or the kind of doubt creeps in and you kind of get into your head a litle bit. I know when I first started at Monco, it was very intimidating. It was my first job in data, first job in higher education because I moved from being a public librarian into this space and we didn't have a director at the time for our team, so it was a little chaotic and it was kind of much like hit the ground going. And it was just not only trying to prove myself in this new space in IT and in this new field, but also that I can contribute quickly and learn quickly and move quickly. And I was very fortunate to have Drs. Les Schwartz, our VP, kind of take me on as a mentee when I first started and we had a lot of great conversations and she was the one who really encouraged me to continue to say yes to any type of project, but not only that, but make sure that you are showing yourself in other spaces in the institution, make sure there's volunteer opportunities that you are there helping students, going to commencement, meeting with other department people that you don't always get to meet with and just making sure that you're visible in other spaces that might not just be connected to your role. And so I found her advice and so invaluable to have her kind of show me the ropes in higher education, but also she's like, where do you see yourself in five years? Really thinking long-term, not just, are you going to stay at Monco? Are you going to go somewhere else? I find that so important and I've tried really hard to find not just mentorship in my institution, but also outside it. She connected me with EDUCAUSE and I've learned so much through my experience with EDUCAUSE and through some outside women-focused organizations and that now I'm at a point where I'm helping other people as a mentor and I just find that work so invaluable because I love to see somebody's journey as they grow and evolve and achieve their dreams. So I find it really, really valuable to be able to have that privilege of having a mentor or a sponsor in the work that you do.

Wes Johnson: That is a beautiful thing about particularly my mind mentorship, because it's not just mentorship to enable you to achieve some goal just for you, but then usually if it's done well, you then train them to be a mentor and that's what carries on the cycle. So that's a very, very beautiful thing. Jumping to you, Cathy, what would you say to a leader who wants to be a better ally but just doesn't know where to start in this space? They want to enable women in IT. What would you say to that leader that wants to be a better ally here?

Cathy Bates: Right. Well, first of all, I just have to say, kudos to all of this conversation that's happening. I just love everything that Nicole said and that you said, Wes. Mentoring is so hugely important and it's the legacy that we're bringing forward for everyone who is behind us. It's such an important thing for us to be working on how to be a better ally. That is, I think, an interesting challenge and I think it depends on the person. So if we're really talking about men, if we're talking about allies that are men are trying to be allies for women, I think that some men are more comfortable in that space than others. They're just sort of naturally there and some are more hesitant and why are they hesitant? Well, I mean, sometimes the combination of men and women in a workplace can be fractious and it can be challenging from a male perspective is sort of, are you worried about befriending somebody and having it misinterpreted or what is holding you back that you have to think about as part of all of this? So I think it can be challenging to be in that situation. And my heart goes out for people who are trying to be in that space and are trying to navigate it because I think their intentions are good and it's a matter of how do you do it. So for me, I think one of the first things is just getting to know people. I mean, everything starts at the human level. We're all human first. So getting to know someone, getting ... Nicole, I think you hit on this a lot, getting to be on projects with people. Now you get to understand the things that they can do and what are their strengths. Showing up in the room for them I think is a big one. I've been in places where men are trying to advocate for women and sometimes they do it not in the room because I think that's better and more apropriate, but I actually think it's better in the room advocating in public in the room. I mean, I can think of some examples of things like this. I can remember when I was a CIO at App State, we had a state CIO council for all the state universities and there were only a couple women in that group and it was mostly men. Sometimes one of us women would say something and it would just sort of fall on deaf ears and then another man would say the same thing and it would be picked up. I did have a friend that was part of that group and I was just getting to know him, but one of the first things I appreciated about him, his name was Tom Jackson was like, if I said something and somebody else picked it up, he would speak up and he would say, "Well, Cathy just said that and it was a really good idea." So advocating-

Sarah Buszka: I love it.

Cathy Bates: In the room I think is a big thing. And I think just getting to know people and get started working with them, that's how it starts.

Wes Johnson: And it seems like we all would benefit from tapping into Nicole's superpower of active listening because you need to be aware to then advocate and speak up for sure. Nicole, would you add anything to that?

Nicole Levitsky: I think Cathy touched on a lot of the great points in that, really advocating in the room. It's something I try to do with younger team members too. If I notice we're in a conversation, me and my colleague can go really in depth back and forth a lot. And then I realize some of my other younger colleagues haven't spoken up. So I'll call them out teacher style and be like, "What are your thoughts on this? " Because I want them to feel confident and comfortable speaking up and not feeling like they can't jump in because we're in a strong back and forth on something. I think that's really important as somebody, because I've been there, as somebody who has not had that confidence to speak up or know when to overspeak over somebody or jump in and I just want to make sure that everyone's voice is heard who's wherever they are present in the meeting. So I try to keep an eye out for that.

Sarah Buszka: I think that's great. I think the theme I'm hearing here is, and this has been threaded throughout the conversation, is having a voice, having the opportunity to share your perspective ... Active and having others support you in that. And it could be just the person in the room speaking up or it could be inviting someone else into a conversation. It could be any of those things and more, but those are really important. So thinking for some next steps here with the conversation, is there anything, and I'm going to ask maybe Cathy to go first, maybe a 30 second to one minute answer. Is there anything you would structurally change about higher education IT to help advance women in IT, other voices in IT, diversity of thought? Is there anything, what would you change if there's one thing that you think we could help, what would that be?

Cathy Bates: I don't think I have a short answer for this because I think. Okay, so our biggest problem right now in higher ed is that we're all so overwhelmed with work

Wes Johnson: And I

Cathy Bates: Think you can't solve other problems until you solve that one. It's hard to have the intentionality to do some of the things that we want to do when we're all just running around so fast trying to get so much done all the time. I think we have a problem in higher ed. It has grown over time. We just keep doing more and more. We don't necessarily stop doing things. We're not good at stop doing things. And so right now we're all over capacity and we're not managing our capacity. There's a process of actually managing capacity and it's not just saying no to things, but it is figuring out what your priorities are, figuring out the things that don't add value and stopping them. It's like an intentional process and we're not doing it. And I think right now the best thing that we can do for our culture is to start managing capacity, Giving space back to people so that they can become the people that they want to be, do the things that they should be doing and create the kind of culture that we should be able to create. And it's hard to do that, create that culture when we're just so busy all of the time. So I think the first step and probably the most important thing that higher education can do right now is to start actively managing capacity, figuring out what not to do that doesn't add value, creating some space and then start to be more intentional about what is it that we should be doing? How should we be doing it?

Sarah Buszka: I think that's great. And it's like even if we say we're not going to do X, Y, Z, that doesn't mean we don't have to stop doing it in perpetuity. We could just say, "Hey, for the next six months, let's stop doing these three things. Let's give ourselves the opportunity to learn from this and get some capacity. And then we can review after three, six months and then decide if it's something we still need to pick up or not. " Almost pressure testing it, treating it like the kind of academic scientific approach of, here's a hypothesis, let's see how it plays out.

Cathy Bates: And it's surprising how many things you don't have to go back to, right?

Sarah Buszka: Or just even

Cathy Bates: Asking your team, what are we doing that is inefficient? What are we doing that is just a waste of time that's not adding value? And people will have answers. I mean, they've stopped talking about it for a while because something is maybe not getting done, but if you open up that can, guys, what comes

Sarah Buszka: Out

Cathy Bates: And if you're willing to do something about it, you really can start to make a difference. I mean, it makes a difference in the culture right away because all of a sudden people start to say, "Maybe I have some agency over these parts of my job that aren't working so well or don't work so well." And that is a part of developing the culture that you might want to develop as part of your

Sarah Buszka: Team. Absolutely. And that gives folks an opportunity to exercise what we've talked about today, which is giving people a voice, inviting them into a conversation, enhancing their comments that they've made in a meeting, all of those things. I think it helps you walk your talk. Nicole, would you add anything to if there's anything that we could structurally change in higher ed to help give folks more of a voice and feel more included, what comes to mind for you?

Nicole Levitsky: Just kind of piggying back off of what Cathy is saying that I think she brought up such a wonderful point. I read actually this morning on LinkedIn a post not to pull in this topic that I know is such a hot topic, but somebody had talked about on a LinkedIn post how AI is causing more workload instead of less workload and that really our intention should be to utilize AI to get back to one FTE person instead of that one FTE person doing more and more work because they now have more proficiency and more ability to do more work because of how AI is helping them. So I think hearing that on LinkedIn and now hearing Cathy's response, I think it makes so much sense that you really need to address that capacity issue because when I first heard you ask this question, my immediate thought was, oh, I would just really like more horizontal conversations. So not so much having to restructure higher ed in the vertical sense, but just including more voices across conversations. So where somebody who's a young professional could talk to somebody who's a CIO or a VP or a dean to build those relationships and experiences and work on those similar projects. But I think you can't get to that step until you do what Cathy just said, which is open up the space and the time for those types of meetings or conversations or projects to evolve. So I don't think that you can do anything else until you address what Cathy said.

Sarah Buszka: And you actually mentioned something structural, right? I mean, we're talking about hierarchy and how orgs are created and how we're intentionally bringing people together in meetings or not having a venue or an opportunity to maybe, to your point, have something horizontal, but bringing in those different perspectives because I think from the young professional perspective, this is something I've heard for years and I felt this myself is I can do better in my job as a young professional, as a woman in IT if I understand what's going on at all the different strata of a complex institution. And even having that exposure once a month, once a quarter, what have you in an email, in a town hall, whatever it is, a lunch, a coffee is really beneficial for everyone. And it's always interesting, I think, to see the nuggets that come out of those intentional collisions that folks I just think can never plan for but can end up solving institutional problems. It's like if you just give people the space to ideate together, really great things can happen for the organization. There's the classic story of how Gmail was invented with 20% time at Google where Google engineers were given 20% of their time each week to just work on whatever personal projects they wanted to work on and that's how Gmail was born. I might be butchering the story, but for the sake of time, I think that's just a great example to show. If we do create that capacity intentionally, Cathy, which we can do even through policy and just say, "Hey, even for three months we're going to give people 20% time in a week, let's see what happens." That we can do those things we do have agency. And I think this whole team is throwing down the gauntlet and challenging anyone who's listening to consider trying that. It's summer's coming up, it's a great time, three months. Let's see what we can do folks. So I think I answered my own next question next, but to wrap things up, I'd love to start with you, Cathy, and then go to you, Nicole, and maybe consider sharing your answer in a minute or less if you can, because it's meant to be one little soundbite. Is there one key takeaway or message or lesson learned that you would like to share with our audience about being a woman in IT, about succeeding in an IT organization or anything else? You have the mic. Cathy, what would you say?

Cathy Bates: Well, I have two things that I think are very important fundamental. You should never not do these. So these are the two most important things that I think we can do. And the first is start by listening. And Nicole talked about this with active listening. I think we always start by listening. We don't always have to be the first one to speak. Listen, start by listening. And then I think the next one is always remember the human in front of you. And I feel like these are two golden rules. If we always start by listening and always remember the human in front of us, we're probably not going to take a wrong step.

Sarah Buszka: Agreed. Yeah. Thank you. That's great advice. Nicole, what would you add?

Nicole Levitsky: Yeah, I think from being a woman in IT, I would kind of encourage everyone to circle back to using your voice, making sure that you have the confidence and ability to use it, but also to not downplay or damper who you are as an individual. I feel like sometimes women face that struggle where you have to fit into a certain ideology of what a woman or a woman in leadership needs to be. And I don't want anyone to feel like you need to damper down or change who you are to fit into this role or into this space because who you are brings a lot more to the table than if you were a more generic version of yourself.

Sarah Buszka: 100%. The space we're traditionally navigating in and I know things are changing and still continue to change, those rule books weren't written for people who look like me or you or Cathy. And so guess what? Those rules don't apply to us. We can just throw that out the window and it's kind of liberating, right? Goodbye. We can do whatever we want. We don't have to abide by those rules because it will never work. We will never be what those rules were written for and we'll never be those people who those rules were written for. So throw it out, get rid of it. We don't need to perpetuate that anymore. And that's my mic drop for the show. Thank you both Nicole and Cathy so much for sharing your perspectives and leadership on the show and in our community. We are so lucky to have you.