Telling the Real Story of Higher Ed: Beyond Fluff, Toward What Matters

Wes Johnson: Welcome to the EDUCAUSE Rising Voices Podcast where we amplify the voices of young professionals in higher education. I'm Wes Johnson and I'm joined by the Immaculate, the amazing, the color coordinated, the greatest, and one half of the tag team champions of the world.

Alycia Baggett: Whoa. Alycia Baggett Chastain. Hey y'all.

Wes Johnson: And we're your co-host for the show. We're also friends of the EDUCAUSE Young Professionals Advisory Committee, WYPAC What Up? And we are so happy to have you here today. We're going to be talking about some... It started as untold truths of higher ed, but that's probably not true. More like whispered truths, water cooler conversations truth of higher ed and the experience of us and many of us across this profession. I can remember back when I was just starting maybe now, dang, 15 years ago now, and not knowing anything about what it means to be in higher ed and what it meant in my institution, the traditions, the unwritten rules. So we got a literal all-star cast for you today to talk about some of those things, whether it's to learn or to reflect. I think it's a benefit particularly to young professionals, but it's also important to continue these conversations because how do we improve and make things better for our industry?

Wes Johnson: And so with that, I'll pass it over to my co-host to introduce our all-star cast today.

Alycia Baggett: Heck yes. Thanks, Wes. All right. Like you said, we've got a great lineup today to start with. We have Alex Jacoby. He's the director of technology strategy at Northwestern University School of Communication. He was previously assistant director for instructional technology and innovation at CalArts and a faculty member at Loyola Marymount in UC Irvine. He received the 2026 EDUCAUSE Rising Star Award. Yes. And serves on the EDUCAUSE WIPAC committee. Thank you, Alex, for being here. Also today we have Sandeep Sidhu as chief information officer at Emily Carr University of Art and Design. Sandeep spearheads transformative digital strategies that integrate people, processes, and technology to elevate organizational resilience and innovation. With nearly 25 years of experience across higher education and private sector consulting, Sandeep has led enterprise wide initiatives in digital transformation, cybersecurity risk management, and operational effectiveness, ensuring operational continuity and regulatory compliance. Thanks guys. It is great to have you here.

Wes Johnson: And so with that, we're going to start with probably the most important question and I'm going to start with you, Alex. What is your superpower?

Alex Jacoby: Yeah, so cooking dinner, making lunch, I have leftovers in a container on the stove. I can always find the exact right size container to put the leftovers in. It's really, really great power.

Alycia Baggett: I bet you're good at Tetris, huh?

Alex Jacoby: Little bit.

Alycia Baggett: Puzzles.

Sandeep Sidhu: That sounds like work sometimes, doesn't it? If I could follow what Alex was saying, I think we do come across so many things in our lives, personal, professional lives. I find myself not being able to do anything unless I'm optimistic about this world and the power of people. Can everyone hear me? Because I see some people doing that. Could I go louder? All right, there we go. Okay. So my superpower is really feeling optimism in this world and the power of people. And we were just chatting before this. I tend to find so much joy just for myself by connecting people because if we work together, I really agree with Heather. We will change this world for a better world. I truly believe that.

Alycia Baggett: Agreed. Agreed.

Wes Johnson: And I would add, Sam D's one of those people that you want to meet too, so it's like a escalation of the superpower. She's a connector that I want to connect with, isn't that?

Sandeep Sidhu: It's so awesome.

Alycia Baggett: No doubt.

Wes Johnson: So now we'll get into the first question. So we're going to talk on the topic of mission versus money, right? We all work in various higher institutions. There's that mission that we all love, that we hear all the time, and then there's the budget and the realities of the compromises we have to make to meet that mission. So starting again with you, Alex, how do institutions balance being student-centered while also remaining financially stable?

Alex Jacoby: Sure. And I think that it's important to point out that this idea of balancing these things is not something that most students are aware of. This isn't something you know until you actually start working in higher ed, that it's not just that people are doing this out of the niceness of their hearts, that they're educating people, that there is money that needs to come in to keep these systems going. So it's a real dilemma to balance these things. And so two of these sort of examples that came to mind recently that I think really pointed the challenges for higher ed to have both of these intention is one around accessibility. It's one of those things that I think a lot of institutions are doing somewhere between okay to good, but doing excellent can be quite expensive, individualized needs for students. And so trying to figure out how to balance those two things I think is something really to consider.

Alex Jacoby: And I also think around topics of institutional resilience, that this is increasingly something that needs to be considered. Do you have money to be paying for two learning management systems? Do you have the capacity to hire someone whose job it is to do backups and support that sort of work? And how important is that sort of resiliency for your institution? And so I think these are sorts of these questions that come to light after you've been in higher ed for a little bit and you realize increasingly how the sausage is made.

Alycia Baggett: Yeah, it's eye-opening.

Sandeep Sidhu: I'm going to take a little different spin on that question. I think one is at an institutional level, we talk about mission versus money. There's also an individual level. What is my mission to come to an organization? How do I connect? Do I feel being part of? When I come to EDUCAUSE, I feel like I've found my tribe and finding that tribe, finding that connection, and I think it ultimately rolls in really well for... If we feel fulfilled in our roles, it's so easy to help an institution fulfill their role because our values are aligned. And then solving the same problems as Alex talking about is that it's not about getting the best tool in place or having all the tools that we need, it's then aligning that decision with the value system that we have. I also think that there's a natural tension in universities.

Sandeep Sidhu: I came from private sector. Sometimes I joke about that being the dark side. It depends how you see it. I loved it and I think I learned so many valuable lessons from that. They're still helping me and vice versa. Our corporate partners are here. How do we work with them to solve the mission that we have? And having those conversations I think are incredibly powerful.

Alycia Baggett: Absolutely. Great answers. All right. Any other thoughts on this subject that you'd like to share? All right. Next topic. I know this one will hit home for most of the audience and all of us. Institutional culture versus unspoken bias. So let's talk a little bit about having to work within the bounds of the tradition and the unwritten rules that are in higher education. That's real life, right? We all have to deal with that every day, but how do you guys believe that these practices can both help and hinder those institutions? Sandeep, would you like to go?

Sandeep Sidhu: I could give it a shot. I'm actually going to talk a little bit about Canada a little bit. So by the way, I've brought some Canada stickers, take one or more. I ordered about 6,000 because I wanted to at least hit a good max. I work at an institution named Emily Carr University of Art and Design. We take pride in investing in our indigenous community, and today is Truth and Reconciliation Day in Canada. Across Canada, we are taking a day to think about the work that we need to do, the commitments that we make, and I'm truly, truly honored to be at an organization. And across Canada, there's a lot of work that we are doing. So I'm just going to take a moment, and this is my commitment to build that culture, to recognize the First Nations lands that I am actually a settler in, Swelatooth, Squamish, and the Musgram Nations.

Sandeep Sidhu: So we do land acknowledgement when we start a day, our meetings, and today I really want everyone to take a moment and think about the culture they're building. And we have so much power in our roles. Doesn't matter what role you're in, take that moment and see who in your team is bringing some sort of a heritage. I'm probably throwing everyone off here. I have a South Asian name. I sound like an Australian because I live there. I'm married to a Canadian and here I am in US. What a beautiful thing to have. And I'm working with everyone who has a story like that. How do we bring that? And to me, that's what builds an institutional culture. And there are some unspoken things, which I'm sure I'm going to let Alex talk a little bit about that. We had a bit of a chat.

Sandeep Sidhu: And how do you unpack those difficult things?

Alycia Baggett: Absolutely. Alex?

Alex Jacoby: Yeah. So unlike Sandeep, I've spent basically my entire career in higher education other than a brief period as a summer camp counselor. And so it's an industry that I feel very passionate about. I was a former faculty member. When I transitioned into IT, I really didn't consider working in the private sector because I really do find value in the liberal endeavor of higher education. And I think it's really been a powerful transformative force in millions of people's lives over the last couple centuries. I think the way that the system works right now has some wonderful benefits. I think that there's great value in the role that faculty autonomy works in the way that our universities operate, academic freedoms. I could go on. I really do have a soft spot for higher ed, but there are also warts on the system that I think do need to be acknowledged.

Alex Jacoby: Representation at the highest levels of higher ed does not look like its student bodies, whether that's college presidents, CIOs, and even some of the senior leaders here at EDUCAUSE. I think there's work still to be done in terms of diversifying who's there. And I think one of the challenges is that higher ed is slow to change and that there's a lot of good in what exists currently. And so trying to unpack that bias as it exists, figure out the parts that are working, and alternatively figure out where those sort of existing systems might not be working so well is a real opportunity for improvement. The other thing I'll just briefly mention in terms of bias that comes to mind is that I think that while we've done a much better job of this in the last 20 years or so, we still generally focus towards a specific type of learner in higher education.

Alex Jacoby: We really sort of prioritize a specific form of knowledge transfer, and I think that increasingly to be more inclusive, not only for different types of staff and faculty, but really to be more inclusive of our students, we need to recognize these sort of problems with these sort of long historical patterns that have existed, and they've worked well in the past, but increasingly we're going to need to change to move forward to ensure that the system still works. I think that part of one of many reasons that Americans are increasingly distrustful of higher education has to do with the fact that this feels like a system that's increasingly out of touch with the world that people are living in in 2026.

Alycia Baggett: Well said.

Wes Johnson: Actually, if y'all don't mind, I'd like to dive a little further into this, so please entertain me for a second. So we talked a little bit, I guess, more broadly about higher ed, but we also used the word unspoken a few times. So I'm going to go back to the start where I kind of mentioned, I remember when I first started and I had no clue how higher ed worked or how to interpret it, how that worked as a young professional who was literally just starting their career and starting in higher ed, what guidance would you give to a young professional that's just starting off to even understand a rule that's not written, a thing that they have to just kind of figure out? And that's open to whoever would like to share some thoughts.

Alex Jacoby: I would show up to some meetings and be a fly on the wall. I think that there is one of the odd quirks is that because people generally stay in their careers for a long time in higher ed, I've been a faculty member for 50 some odd years in this department, there really develops these sort of ingrained and insular cultures specific to departments, specific to a school or maybe specific to an institution, a college, that sort of thing. And I think that experiencing it firsthand is so critical to just sort of see the way that things work. Who's actually in charge of the meeting, who gets to contribute ideas, who gets to speak and in what order, how much time they get, whose ideas are valued, those are all, I think, really critical in understanding the culture and who's in charge and maybe a little bit of that bias thing too.

Wes Johnson: Oh, that's great. And I would add, I'm asking a question that I kind of add my own little answer to as well, but just thinking about it, I would add onto that. It is about actually putting yourself out there, experiencing it, getting in those meetings, being in those rooms. But I also argue on the other side, and I'm curious if others have thoughts, but as a leader now, so that was 10, 15 years ago, I'm a leader now. It's also about creating those opportunities, putting folks in a space, inviting them saying, "Hey, this is a space that anyone can come to," or, "Here's some of the rules of how you might present in this room," and giving them some of that guidance and opportunity to show up and essentially experiment with how they can approach that institution's culture or process and from institution to unit to an individual team.

Wes Johnson: There's layers upon layers of how you understand that.

Alex Jacoby: Well, and I think that it's important that the institution culture isn't static. We need these new voices coming in and pushing it forward and saying, "Hey, this may have worked for millennials, but this is not working for me as part of Gen Z. I need different systems in place or something."

Sandeep Sidhu: And particularly when those generations are mixing together, because if you look at any organization, you often have the startups where you have a certain generation prominently active. In a university, you will see a wider range that you need to start thinking. I absolutely 100% agree with your point. I think with culture, once someone said this to me, stuck with me forever, it's like don't go to an organization and read their policy because culture is what happens outside the policy. It's those unspoken, unwritten things that happen, behaviors and connections. As you were speaking, it's a great question. I'm going to put together three things that have been helpful for me as I reflect on this question. One is find out who makes the decision in your organization. In a university coming from private sector, I didn't realize the role of Senate versus boards. That is such an important thing.

Sandeep Sidhu: Took me a long time. I wish I knew that. Second, I know you're not going to like this one, but I found it really useful join a committee. I volunteer in committees, be fly on the wall, 100% agree, and then participate. I still remember taking on a committee as a chair role because nobody wanted it. I'm like, "I'll do it." And it was a safety committee. Who wants a safety committee? But this is what it did. In that committee meeting, I was meeting deans. I was just six months into that job. I had leaders from academic and administrative areas. I had folks that I would not have connected. It gave me so much insight and appreciation for their work before I was getting into being judgmental. So join a committee, try a few and read about the organizational history and higher ed altogether. And I'm going to do a little plug.

Sandeep Sidhu: EDUCAUSE has some amazing onboarding resources, navigating higher ed for corporates as well as for institutions. So if you have a new member coming to your team, I would put them through those resources and really being that shepherd along their journey, connecting them with communities. And these communities exist in so many levels. I think it's a fantastic question you ask.

Alycia Baggett: Yeah, I like it. One more cherry on top, just to tie all of this together. I'm hearing a lot of a practical takeaway that's timeless advice, but well-suited for young professionals in the scenario you described, Wes, is challenge yourself, be bold, be curious, ask questions. And even further on that, ask more than one person at your institution. That's how you start to discover that culture, those biases, unwritten rules. And going back to Heather's, I think, keynote this morning, that constructive positive friction often can happen in those moments. You might not agree with everything that you learn from the two, three, maybe more people that you ask the same question to, but it starts to broaden your perspective and your understanding, and then you'll be well-suited when the timing is right and you get that leadership opportunity to be able to have the conversations of what do we keep, what do we go, what's needed and what's not?

Alycia Baggett: And I just think that would help our community at large if we lean into some of those conversations a little further.

Sandeep Sidhu: 100%.

Alycia Baggett: Yeah,

Sandeep Sidhu: 100%.

Wes Johnson: We're going to keep leaning here and head to the next topic, our final one, I believe. And so this kind of speaks on institutions vary in size, their expertise or what their focus are, et cetera, et cetera. And I've exclusively worked in R1 institutions, so I can be blind to how this is effective on a smaller or medium-sized institution. I worked at research institutions versus other, just more focused on teaching rather than research. So I'll start off with you, Alex. To what extent do you believe institution size, reputation, and location impact the professional networks and opportunities available to a professional?

Alex Jacoby: Sure. So I've had the opportunity to work at a couple pretty small institutions. Before this current position, I was at California Institute of the Arts, which is a smaller art school with about 1300 students in enrollment. And quite a while ago as a faculty member, I taught at a music conservatory that had a couple hundred students enrolled, so really quite small. And unsurprisingly, in those sorts of environments, there are some real limitations and constraints to what's available to you. Budget is sort of the most obvious example. There's just less money. And what does that mean? It means that as a young professional, I had less opportunities for supervisions. My teams were generally smaller. I also had less opportunities to get involved in budget work because there just wasn't as much of it to be done, to be completely frank. At the same time, it really was an amazing opportunity to become a generalist despite living within instructional technology.

Alex Jacoby: Because we had a relatively small team, I was privy to what was going on in terms of ERPs and all sorts of other software implementations that were pretty far outside my bailiwick. And it was a wonderful learning opportunity about all of these other sorts of platforms. In addition to just benefiting from being closer to the action, I will also say that getting involved in EDUCAUSE was absolutely amazing, an organization that was not interested in how large my institution was in terms of support. But I'll also say I got involved in other local organizations for higher ed IT, and I would say that I've just been blown away at the generosity and kindness of most people in this industry. So even if you're at a smaller school, if you're thinking, oh gosh, these people at an R1 want nothing to do with me, I think that in fact, yes, there are some limitations to being at a small school, but I just got a job at a much larger school.

Alex Jacoby: So there is the path is out there.

Sandeep Sidhu: Absolutely. Another great question. I think about, so I've been at three institutions of varied sizes from a university. We don't call them R1 in Canada, research universities, I'm guessing -

Wes Johnson: One of my blind spots in action.

Sandeep Sidhu: Yeah. No, that's all right. I'm learning. See, this is how we learn by asking that question. I assume this is what you're thinking. And what I notice, I'm not going to repeat what Alex said spot on. I'm just going to add couple more things. Think about networks. It doesn't matter the size of your organizations, but there are so many networks outside your organizations. So there's Internet two, like an organization in Canada. We have Canary, we have BC Net, and we have one member from BCNET Devin who introduced herself. Those networks are incredible, so work with

Alex Jacoby: Them.

Sandeep Sidhu: They can also lean on your support. So from day one, I got introduced to that network, started from that provincial, national, and you can only go up and now North America. So get involved in those organizations as well. What I've also found incredibly rewarding, and I learned a lot around governance and stewardship is by joining a board. So I would do that plug and the board ideally should be aligned with your value system. Education is very close to me. I got involved in that, but I've started doing some work. We

Alex Jacoby: All

Sandeep Sidhu: Have so much experience and knowledge. A nonprofit organization can benefit from your wisdom so much I didn't realize until I joined one. We can help them achieve their mission. So I think there is that two-way street to extend your question in terms of that influence and resources, and they can help us learn so much about how

Alycia Baggett: We

Sandeep Sidhu: Manage our organizations as well and be more responsible. So I would do that little plug to get out there in the community.

Alycia Baggett: That's a good one.

Wes Johnson: Yeah. I mean, higher ed community are two words that are said together quite often, so tapping into that community is clearly important and useful. And I can say even as someone, again, exclusively at R1s, in some ways, granted, it was an unending opportunity, and I'd say one of the benefits from coming from maybe a more resource constrained environment is we think we have more resources available to us than we truly have sometimes.

Sandeep Sidhu: But you also have more problems to solve.

Wes Johnson: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Sandeep Sidhu: I felt that.

Wes Johnson: Absolutely. I'll say sometimes just the sheer amount of potential opportunities connect can be overwhelming, especially very early on in your career that it kind of just sounds like blah, blah, blah in your ear. You hear community and there's a hundred communities to be involved in and it's like, "Yo, I'm just trying to get here, do my job. I'm just a help desk worker. I just want to answer the questions." But you're thinking about your career and such, so I just wanted to share that insight. That just a bit of a spark from our purpose.

Alex Jacoby: The other thing that comes to mind is that if you're working at a smaller institution and this is sort of something you're worried about, oh God, this inferiority complex or that you're living in a different reality than other people, I'd encourage you to talk to someone who works at some school where you're like, "Oh wow, that's big." Find yourself some school with a bunch of global campuses and 75, 100,000 students enrolled and just talk to them. And the reality may be that you're actually doing more similar things than you think and that sure, they have more FTE than you, but you're still solving the same sorts of human problems most likely.

Sandeep Sidhu: I see some questions coming out. I do want to add a little to that thread, if I may. In Canada, there's only four art and design universities. So if we had to look at that network, the only way we could extend is to come to EDUCAUSE. That's how I met Alex's previous boss. And to be able to channel that, there is so much wisdom in those conversations that you end up reinventing the same solution and similar problems. I find there's so much power in that network.

Alycia Baggett: Agreed, agreed. I mean, that's really, you guys hit a lot on leaning into the power of the human touch. And again, going back to the keynote, we talked about that today, but just when you start to have those conversations and you lean into that, you often find more similarities than differences. And as simple as that is, that's very profound when it's in practice and when we apply it to some of these big picture obstacles that we're all facing today.

Sandeep Sidhu: Yeah. And it is hard work.

Alycia Baggett: Yes, it is.

Sandeep Sidhu: It is hard work. I see questions.

Alycia Baggett: Okay. Let's open it up. I think we got an audience question.

Sandeep Sidhu: Fun.

Alycia Baggett: Do you have advice for those moving into manager roles on how to handle culture conflicts?

Wes Johnson: Ooh. Run. No.

Alycia Baggett: That's a good one.

Wes Johnson: I can think back to... Well, I only have to think back. As a manager right now of managers, I would say that that's something that you're going to become more and more exposed to foreseeably the rest of your career, even on some of the points that we talked about earlier with the clashing of different generations, different experiences as we've become more open to representation that brings different thoughts to the table. And sometimes those things conflict. They don't all fit together well, and you have to somehow manage that in between. The things that I think have helped me the most though, haven't solved all those things. I think they're ongoing conversations rather than immediate things that you can just fix. Listening skills, active listening. We talked about that some earlier. I've become a very good listener since I've become a manager, at least I hope I have.

Wes Johnson: I think also being very as transparent as you can be about what you can do, what you will do, and what you cannot do, and what you will not do. And I know sometimes that can sound defeating, but I think sometimes the staff that report to you are more looking for the clarity because that shows a sign of respect for their time and what they contribute to you rather than you just trying to give them the answer that makes them feel good when they walk out the room. Everything's not going to feel good. And as a manager and a leader, it is part of your responsibility to hold those things and manage those things for your team. But I open the floor now for others who may have some guidance.

Alex Jacoby: Yeah. I'll just briefly say that to me, and this sort of comes in fact from formerly being a historian, is trying to understand why people are saying what they're saying, understanding the subtext of that comment. Even if I disagree with their sentiment, I don't want to be more inclusive or something. I may disagree with that, but where is that sentiment coming from? Why do they feel this way? What sort of things have been contributing to this sort of behavior? And trying to understand a little bit more of where they're coming from. It doesn't magically solve anything, but I think it generally humanizes the conflict and you understand that they're not doing this to be difficult or something, and that really sort of trying to take everyone's perspective can help. It's not a silver bullet. It just usually helps me get a little closer to figuring something out.

Sandeep Sidhu: Yeah. Not much to add. Two tips. One, find a mentor. If you've stepped into a leadership role, you can't do it alone. Gaylene, who won an award today, is one of my mentors. I see Kyle. He doesn't think he's my mentor, but he's pushed me in directions that I wouldn't have gone. So find mentors. These guys have been my mentors in the YPAC group, peer mentorship. So that's one. Second, culture is not an HR problem. Culture is you to earn. So figure it out yourself. Acknowledge it first. Don't have the answers, but you will figure it out. To Alex's point, it is messy. It is so messy when two things are mixing, and we talked about those generational things. It's not going to be straightforward. Hence,

Alycia Baggett: You

Sandeep Sidhu: Are

Alycia Baggett: A

Sandeep Sidhu: Leader.

Alycia Baggett: Yes.

Sandeep Sidhu: Not an AI box.

Alycia Baggett: That's right. I'm hearing a few more things here. So be patient, be empathetic, be open-minded, and be resilient, right? I think those things can help us. Talk in as managers and observe the culture, see where we can change it, see where we need to keep it.

Sandeep Sidhu: And be kind to yourself.

Alycia Baggett: Yeah. Very good one.

Sandeep Sidhu: It's a tough one.

Alycia Baggett: Okay. So we've talked about a lot here already, but let's open it up for any things that key takeaways that you guys have that you'd like to leave the audience with or anything that we haven't hit on that you'd like to share.

Alex Jacoby: Sure. I'll jump in. I think the answer is out there for most of us with these questions. And it's just you sort of taking that step forward and tapping into networks that you likely already have, that you may need to reevaluate these people that you've connected with and see what more you can get out of those relationships. Or it's an opportunity to lean into EDUCAUSE or a similar organization and make those connections. I think that this is really, a lot of these questions that we've discussed is something that you can get better at if you're proactive in approaching this sort of thing.

Alycia Baggett: Absolutely.

Sandeep Sidhu: I do things in bullets. You can tell the theme. I would say three things as we are reflecting. And every time we do conversations like this, we learn a lot and I feel the same way even being prompted with these questions. I would say get involved, get your voice out there and whatever is your medium, just do it. Don't wait for someone else to give you the space. Create it for yourself. I think Alex talked a little bit about just going into those meetings, showing up. So that would be one. Second, I did say mentor, find some good mentors. I have found them incredibly useful and they've become friends over time. The third one would be, I did say be kind to yourself when you invest in yourself. You're going to make mistakes, you're going to get through those tough times. I still look back and I go, oh my God, what was I thinking when I said that?

Sandeep Sidhu: What I was thinking in that moment was the best thing that I knew. And I've learned so much more now. So be kind, reflect on what's happened, move forward. And if you've made a mistake, apologize and that's okay. We also, no matter what the title is, we are human beings in the end of the day.

Alycia Baggett: Yes.

Sandeep Sidhu: So those are my three.

Alycia Baggett: Absolutely. Give grace to yourself and others.

Sandeep Sidhu: Grace. I love that word. Yeah.

Wes Johnson: Well, first, Sandy, thank you so much for joining us today for the episode. It's a pleasure to have you back. You are a return guest, so thank you so much.

Sandeep Sidhu: Thank you for having me.

Wes Johnson: And Alex, I'm going to take a moment to just first thank you and again, congratulate you for winning that Rising Star Award. It is amazing. Get used to this. We're all going to do this to you for the next couple of months. Thank you so much. Until next year. That's right.

Sandeep Sidhu: Until next year.

Wes Johnson: Thank you so much for making the Rising Voices podcast one of the first places you came to share your insight.

Alex Jacoby: Thank you all.

Sandeep Sidhu: Yes. Thank you.

Wes Johnson: And with that, we are the EDUCAUSE Rising Voices Podcast. Thank you so much and we will see you again soon.