Back to Campus? Higher Education's Great Work Debate

Wes Johnson: Welcome to the EDUCAUSE Rising Voices Podcast, where we amplify the voices of young professionals in higher education. I'm Wes Johnson and I'm joined by my co-host, the amazing, the bright, the brilliant, the greatest ever to do it in and out the ring.

Sarah Buszka: I love that. Thank you. I'm Sarah Buszka and co-host for the show.

Wes Johnson: We're members and friends of the EDUCAUSE Young Professionals Advisory Committee, also known as YPAC. What up? And today, we're going to be talking about at least what's been a hot topic since COVID, but it has always been around the background. In office versus hybrid, versus remote, what are we doing? What's the pulse in higher ed today? We got some amazing guests here to talk through this. I'll say that I sit somewhere in the middle of all the discussion. I'll come out right front and say that I love the flexibility of remote work culture. Even what we're doing here today is in part of things that are put in place for remote-facing things, but there are some social aspects. I'm a budding sociology major. There are some social aspects that are lacking sometimes in that kind of space. But in my mind, a lot of the discussions around is the traditional come into office thing has existed for decades.

We've gotten pretty good at it, but it came with a lot of work for humanity as a whole. Human rights, civil rights. We can go down the line, workers' rights. There's a lot that came to this, where at scale remote work is kind of new. And sometimes I think, did we not take enough time to intentionally design that thing or is it that it's just better, we already figured it out and we just need to figure out the benefits? But we got some guests here, Sarah, to talk through some questions on the topic, get some input, some insights. How about we intro?

Sarah Buszka: All right. First up we have a friend and familiar face on the show, Mr. Tim Chester. He is a professionally trained sociologist who considers his work as a technologist to be a form of applied sociology, exploring how institutions, people, and technology intersect. We got two sociologists on the show today, friends. He has also served as vice president for information technology at the University of Georgia since 2011, following leadership roles at Pepperdine University and Texas A&M University. And since 2022, he has also served as the Vice Chancellor for Information Technology at the University System of Georgia. Welcome, Tim. Good to see you back on the show. Thank you for being here.

Timothy Chester: I'm glad to be here. Thanks for the generous opportunity to come speak to you.

Sarah Buszka: Of course. And next up, last but not least, we have Kenny Dockham. Kenny is a software developer at California State University, San Bernardino, specializing in PeopleSoft campus solutions and third-party system integrations. He has three years of experience working in higher education, collaborating with campus partners to streamline workflows and automate processes. Outside of work, he's currently pursuing a master's degree in computer science. Kenny, welcome to the show. Thanks for being here.

Kenny Dockham: Thank you for having me.

Sarah Buszka: Awesome. So, before we dive into today's topic, we love to ask all of our guests the same question, which is, what is your superpower? And Tim, I'm going to ask you first. I know you've been on the show and shared, so my question maybe for you is, has your superpower changed or have you found a new one?

Timothy Chester: No. I don't think it's changed. I think my superpower, as Wes Johnson will tell you, has always been the ability to shift directions, change policy, change a project, revisit a decision when the evidence says that it's the right thing to do. And that's actually pretty hard for a lot of people to do. But people with more assertive personalities tend to shift gears quite often when the wins suggest that you should. Some people see that as a contradiction. Some people see that as an inconsistency. I really believe that's a superpower, though.

Sarah Buszka: There we go. I agree. Adaptability, right? Changing wins, you got to go with it. And then Kenny, what about you? What is your superpower?

Kenny Dockham: I think my superpower is probably... right now I feel that it's listening and understanding. I feel that it's something that I've become pretty good at, listening and understanding what people want, and how they're communicating, and how to achieve the goals, and collaborate with them to do that.

Sarah Buszka: That's great. I think that's very apropos for today's topic as well. So, let's get into it, Wes. What questions you got for them?

Wes Johnson: Yep. So, Kenny, I'm going to start with you. So, do you believe there's a difference between being included versus being connected in workplace and workplace culture?

Kenny Dockham: Yeah, I definitely do. I think it's easy to include people. You have events, and you have team meetings, and you have projects and you bring people in on those things. I think you can definitely do that. But it's a different sort of feeling to be connected to the team, to be working and feeling like your input is valid, and that you're being a part of the progress to achieve whatever you're working on. I think that there's a definite difference there in the feeling that you have as an individual and the product that you end up making as a team.

Wes Johnson: And kicking over to you, Tim, I mean, do you think that physical location is what's key to that? What's important about physically being located to be connected versus inclusion, where we see that as more easy to do?

Timothy Chester: I love this question because I think you hit upon a distinction that really matters. And so, as I was writing some notes down, I started thinking about there's two or three people I've worked for that I consider to be the best. One of them would be one where I was really included, but I didn't necessarily feel connected. One would be where I was deeply connected, but I wasn't always included. And then there's a really special one, when you are connected and included. And for a CIO, sometimes to be included in things that are a bit up outside your lane, it's a sign of respect. It's a sign of understanding the value that you can bring to the table, but that traditionally happens because I think of the connectedness. The connectedness is really about a relationship. People will know how you think, they know what you will bring to the table, what you've done, whether you can be trusted under pressure.

My best boss in the world, who I will not name, just because it will offend the other two or three that are really, really important to me, but this person always told me what was going on. She always asked me what I thought about things, even when they were things a bit outside of my lane. And I always knew where I stood with her and with clarity. And as I think about the people that work for me, I think I've tried to do that with some success in some ways, in some ways not as well as I would like to. But I think that's just really, really important. Inclusion is about checking a box. Did you get the invitation? Are you in the meeting? Are you on the invite list? Or who do you report to? But the connection is a relationship and that's a relationship that accumulates over time.

Now, so here's goes to your place. I think, my personal view as a sociologist and in spending time with students in the classroom, I believe that connection tends to accumulate a little faster and a little stronger through being face to face. I think it is the round the water cooler connections, the casual conversations, the getting to know people a little bit personally. I think that becomes an accelerant for building connection. That doesn't mean that I think you can't build connection remotely, but I believe it's a little harder and it's a little bit like swimming upstream. And I think if you're going to be focused on making sure you're doing that, you've got to be very deliberate about it.

Sarah Buszka: Oh, go ahead.

Wes Johnson: Sorry, Sarah. Please go ahead.

Sarah Buszka: We're always on the same page, Wes. I love that.

Wes Johnson: That's right.

Sarah Buszka: Go ahead.

Kenny Dockham: Yeah. I think Tim makes a good point. I mean, when I was thinking about this question as well, especially the location aspect of it. I don't have much experience in the difference between the two environments, but I have seen both. And it does seem that you could do it over a remote environment, especially a fully remote environment. You would just have to be really intentional about what you're doing. Like Tim said, it's not just including people in the calls. And I think you hop on a call, you're there to solve a problem. So, how do you create calls for people to have that? I'm just walking by your cubicle, having a conversation with you to have that team building. That's where I think, especially fully remote kind of workplace, you would have to be really intentional about creating that connectiveness.

Timothy Chester: Yeah. I mean, when you start talking about this, it immediately raises concerns about really what's great about remote work, which is it fits professional lives that are earlier career, family, work-life balance, so on and so forth. On the EDUCAUSE CIO Listserv, my good friend Alan Chen and I had a conversation. He works in Los Angeles. I used to live in Los Angeles. I get it. It's easier to recruit people. It's easier for them. Why should somebody have to spend $100 a week on gasoline to commute across downtown, so on and forth? Those are worthwhile questions and important questions from a work life balance standpoint. So, I think everything we're saying here is not a reflection of a value judgment on the importance or quality, positivity or negativity about work life. It's really about human connection. As I think about the age of AI, and I think I'm an AI optimist when I think about AI by 2035.

I'm not sure about between now and then, that's another debate. But I think the superpower for young professionals in the age of AI is the ability to navigate human friction. And the ability to navigate human friction, I believe is an experience that is learned and an experience that comes under pressure. It is an experience that is something that we learn and develop at an instinct over time. And again, like we said earlier, I think that accelerates and happens a little bit quicker face-to-face than it does remote.

Sarah Buszka: Well, you're reading my mind here, Tim, thinking about the impact of AI and of course, me, executive director of an applied AI lab, I'm going to bring up AI. So, since we're on this topic, I'm kind of curious., Well, actually, to hear from you, Kenny, too. I think the reason why we've had both of you on the show is to have the perspective of someone who is earlier career, like you, Kenny. I'm assuming that most of your professional experience has been through the pandemic, has had a lot of remote, online, hybrid type work. You're somewhat in the LA-ish area, more or less. So, you understand the pain or the woes, I should say, of spending $100 a week or maybe a day on gasoline. So, I'm curious, how are you seeing this? How has AI really been shaping your experience with work? That in person hybrid, remote aspect, what are you seeing? And is there something that's driving a certain behavior or anything that you're really feeling right now in your work?

Kenny Dockham: Yeah. I think, definitely, I mean, it's impossible to avoid. Everybody wants to talk about AI. All the campus partners want AI solutions because they don't want to fall behind. They want to be on the cutting edge of this. We're trying to increase enrollment always. We're trying to improve student experience. I really like this question, what you sent over, because it really got me thinking I can see it both ways. I think the AI impact could push people towards remote work and push specifically the leaders to favor that, because things are more hands-off. Students are able to interact online. They don't need to go to a help desk. They ask a chatbot and they've got their problem solved. But I could also see it being a different way, because four-year institutions don't just offer classes. They offer an experience. Part of the college experience is to go to a campus and to be on a walkable environment, where you have all your friends there and food and everything you need.

So, I could see it being a selling point of some universities to be like, we have in person people. We have people here to help you and to support you. And we have that kind of experience. And sometimes I wonder, because this has been the push on our campus, because in the beginning of my career, I was able to work remotely. And we've moved fully back in person, with that specific drive being that we want the students to feel connected, we want the environment to feel lively, we want to drive the connectiveness. And I think that's a good goal, but I think for some roles it does make more sense just to have the remote aspect, because a lot of the work that we do is now remote. You have meetings with your colleagues. It's easier to hop on a Zoom call and share your screen than it is to get into a boardroom, and log into the computer, and pull up whatever you need to pull up.

So, there's aspects of the remote work that I think make us more productive in what we're doing. And so, I see the advantage and I can see the AI push going either way. Kind of going back to the connectiveness is like I understand that they're trying to build up the connectiveness. But part of me wonders, maybe you feel more connected to your team if you're able to have a day or two at home, and be more closer to your life. And you share that with your coworkers and you have more to talk about to bring them in on that. But I do definitely see... I was thinking about this AI. I was thinking about what impacts it could have on the work location. I went back and forth in my mind. I wasn't sure really what it would drive more.

Sarah Buszka: Yeah. And building on that, too, I think what you're hitting on is something Tim talks a lot about. And I'm wondering, Tim, if I can tap you in to share some of your thoughts around this role of the executor versus the orchestrator type logic that you've been using, at least how I've read in your Substack. And here's a little shout-out to our listeners. Tim has published extensively on this in his Substack, so please take a peek at it. It's also in the EDUCAUSE CIO Listserv as well. But Tim, would you be willing to touch on how you're seeing AI impact the role of the executor and the orchestrator and what those differences are for us?

Timothy Chester: Yeah. And let me say, I agree with everything that Kenny just said. If an employee who has really good work-life balance is going to be a more productive employee, who is going to be better at work in terms of building and maintaining relationships, regardless of whether or not they're onsite or whether at work. And I think this certainly, remote work has a ability to make a difference when it comes to that. When I tend to think about AI and remote work, I don't think it's necessarily pushing us one way or the other, but what it's doing is really reclassifying the nature of the work. Shane Legg of DeepMind put a quote out there that I turned into a Substack post. That he basically said... And again, I am always weary of what's said in the middle of hype cycles because I've been through so many of them.

But his basically argument is, is if your value add is being in front of a machine, and then basically pushing a mouse around, and doing things on that screen and that's the value add you add to an employer, that work is going to be the type of work that tends to push you into either what I have called an executor role, which is more task orientation, working a queue of work and adding some value. Either in approving routing or something like that. Or what I've called, basically, which is an aggregator, which is again, a solo practitioner who basically takes content and information and aggregates it in some way, and provides analysis and reports. AI is going to put those types of careers at risk, certainly more at the executor role than it does necessarily the analyzer kind of role.

My hypothesis has been that real value that an employee provides to an employer is the versatility that gives you the ability to cross domains, different types of work streams. And again, we in IT, we get to do this all the time. We work with admissions people, we work with financial aid people, we work with financial people. I got 20 schools and colleges at UGA, people from the medical school, the business school, the engineering college, the music college and so on and so forth. And man, when you work with those folks, you get an appreciation for their subject matter and their domain. And when I can cross those boundaries and talk about the impact of AI or the impact of a technology decision, and really learn from each of those cross-domain, I think that gives you a set of skills. And then when you can even further hone that knowledge to where you can orchestrate and influence across those boundaries, those are super skills that you can't develop any other way.

And what we try to do in a really team oriented environment is provide employees a living lab to develop those skillsets. Now, again, not necessarily making a value judgment anti-remote work. But again, going back to that first question, I think the connectedness and the relationships between people are easier to develop and the development is accelerated face to face. And I give you an example here. Wes Johnson, almost 10 years ago Wes was an accounting clerk in our business office. And we need somebody on a banner implementation that wasn't going well, who was thorough, was accurate, communicated well, worked hard, willing to learn. And so, we tapped Wes on the shoulder and said, "Here's an opportunity for you, my friend." Now, I remember watching you the first three months on that job. You got into a room with friction, man.

I mean, there's the red star wants this, financial aid wants that, the verser wants that, I want this, I want simplicity. The IT people say, "We can't do that." That was a room full of human friction. And so, the argument that I'm trying to make is you can have that friction on a Teams meeting, but I think the easiness of distractions, the ability... And I apologize, I've caught myself looking at a text message somebody sent me two minutes ago. It is just really, really hard in that world. And again, not putting a value judgment about one over the other, but I think the connective tissue between people develops and seals better from the face-to-face. That's certainly been my experience. I was asked last year to provide some insight, my personal opinions on another institution's struggles with their ERP implementation. And it was an implementation that went live in the middle of the pandemic, so it was done 100% remote.

I gave them what I thought. It wasn't exactly well received. But my thinking was a lot of your challenges come from the fact that you did it 100% remote. That was received as a value judgment against remote. And I should've been a little bit more careful with that. That was the nature of the pandemic and we all had to make that work. But again, there's something about learning to work and navigate human friction that I think is an important skillset in an age of AI. And that seems to accelerate in my experience better face-to-face and faster face-to-face.

Sarah Buszka: Kenny, do you have any thoughts on what Tim just shared?

Kenny Dockham: Yeah. I think there are interesting points. I've never really thought about the value add of being in a space, in a physical space with the friction of other campus partners. I think that from my personal experience, a lot of the time when it comes down to the nitty-gritty, which is mostly what I work with, the Zoom calls and the... it just feels like we get things done faster. You hop on a call, you share your screen, things get done. But definitely, we have meetings with the different... Like Tim was saying. And one part I agree 100% on is the value and how much fun it is to be able to learn all these different processes. I started a career. And I went to school for computer science. And I thought my career would be totally technology focused, but it's very interesting to get to learn all of the business process across the campus and then try to tie them together.

And I think that that's a value that can happen in an in person environment, where afterwards you're chatting with people that work in different areas. And not really a connection that you would be able to get from a remote environment, or it would be more difficult. At least a fully remote environment, definitely. But I do definitely feel, and I think Tim agrees, that there's a value definitely to both sides of this. There's a value to be able to hop on the Zoom call. One thing that we've... and I've talked to coworkers about, because I started my career right after COVID, basically. So people, the campus had come back in person. And so, we had remote work, but I was never part of the fully remote.

I did do school fully remote and I had a part-time job. And that experience was not something that I would like to go back to, because full remote is definitely way more difficult to have that feeling of connected, like what you're doing matters, what you're doing is actually impacting people. But I do think the hybrid environment was perfect for me, part of it selfishly. You like to be able to not to have to drive and all these things. And I think what I was trying to get at, and I think Tim would agree, is that there's both sides of these have value. And I think sometimes the conversation gets flattened out to this one's better or this other one's better. I think that both have value.

And I think part of the reason I think Chris thought of me for this podcast is that I made a comment on our new CSUSBs getting a new president and they had an open forum. And I got up and I said, "The students deserve competent people to work and they deserve the best of..." Not that the people that work there aren't competent, but they deserve the best people in their roles. And part of that is making enticing job offers and making offers to get... And as a four-year institution, as a publicly funded institution, you can't always offer the highest pay. But something you could do is entice them with other opportunities, like hybrid work or flexible work environments. And so, I think that a lot of times we don't consider the value there. I think that you want the connectedness and the value part there doesn't get explored as much. So, that was basically my point, is that you could entice people with this.

Timothy Chester: Yeah. I think that's right. And I want to add to this. If you are bringing people back to the office because face-to-face is better, but then you're orchestrating your environment where everybody is in the same building and basically having Teams meetings with each other, you are doing it wrong. And so, that's making physical something important, but not doing all the things we've been talking about, which is that kind of connective tissue.

Sarah Buszka: Yeah. Yeah. And I think you hit the nail on the head. Well, first, that was a nice mic drop moment, Tim. Thank you for that. We always love to have at least one of those on the show, but I think you-

Wes Johnson: Just one at least.

Sarah Buszka: Just one at least, right. But I think you both are hitting on the topic that we started with, which is inclusion versus connection. And just because if you're bringing everyone into the office and they're all on Zoom calls all day, sitting in individual offices, because if we're all out in a cube land talking, that doesn't work either. Yes, we might be included, but are we really connected if we're together but still apart? And what value is that adding truly? And then to your point, Kenny, I think what I'm hearing really is considering that people are more than just their jobs. We have lives outside of these institutions.

We are people who have families, who have pets, who are caretakers, who are parents, who have hobbies, who fly planes. That's what I do. I do things outside of this. And so, considering that I might be able to be a better person if I'm able to spend that one day at home a week so I can take care of my family, so I can get appointments done, so I can have the roof people come and check out my hail damage on my roof, which also happened to me. Those are things that help me be a better person, because then I'm not sitting in my desk an hour away from my house, stressed about my roof leaking during the thunderstorm that's happening.

So, it's things like that I think that I'm hearing where it's like, I think maybe the through line is, can we just treat everyone like a human being and just remember that we're not cogs in a wheel or numbers? We are people with emotions and experiences and challenges. And asking us to show up every day into an office just to be on Zoom calls is miserable.

Wes Johnson: Yep. It makes me think of there was a book I've been reading, social sciences book that talks about information systems kind of chiming in on the all the above approach, because I think that's what it is. Similar to AI, it's here and it's not going anywhere no matter what. I think multiple work modes are here and they're not going away no matter what. And in the building of information systems, the book states that the first information system was language drawing and literal human interaction way before we were humans, back to the Neanderthals. When we learned to communicate with each other, that was the first information system. Then that shifted to records and us actually having a record of ownership. But even if we get all the way to social media today, and the internet, and all those things that exist that are their own information systems, we still tell stories today.

Those things take life because we interact in person, but then can also interact online. And so, it really is an all the above approach. No matter how much we advance, there are things specific to us as humans that will always be there and they compliment each other. A story becomes real when I can talk to Tim about it on the side versus just a TV show that we watch. It doesn't become a thing. Game of Thrones became what it was when we talked about it at the office, not just when we watched it. So, that's what this all is making me think and reflect on. It's really all the above. What's the best tool for the job for the moment, what we're trying to do?

Timothy Chester: Again, I worked at Pepperdine a long time. I get the commutes from all across town. I mean, you can use remote and work in a way that creates work-life balance for your employees. And certainly, in an age of six and $7 gas, which I bet what you're stinging in Los Angeles, absolutely you want to do this, but create some ground rules. If we're going to have Zoom meetings, no other text messages, no other devices, no other work. You have to be present. And you have to make eye contact and you basically have to be engaged. And if you set some ground rules and set that tone, I think you can do this in a way that allows that connectedness to build. I love that distinction. I had actually not thought.. That's an economy that I had not thought of. Being connected and included is the absolute best.

And so many CIOs just focus on being included and that is not... You can get drug to a cabinet meeting and get to go all the time and not have any influence. You are included, but you are not connected. At the same time, I can avoid all kinds of meetings where I don't add value. But if I need to talk to my president about a subject where I need his advice and I can call him at any time, that's connectedness and that is what matters. I think if I had to choose between the two, I'd take the connectedness anytime.

Sarah Buszka: Yeah, me too. Absolutely. Because you feel overall then you can get more things done and what you're doing matters, too.

Timothy Chester: Yeah. When I was an undergraduate student, I was taking a class from a professor of sociology and he wrote this paper. It was an interesting concept. I'm going to date myself, this was 1989. But it was this concept of social capital. And the professor had done this study at the Vietnamese community in Beaumont, Texas, that they began arriving after Vietnam. And within a year, these people would arrive in Beaumont, Texas with nothing, literally not two pennies to their name. And within a year, they owned businesses and were middle class in the US. And how did they get that fresh start?

It was the social capital, that by coming into that Vietnamese community, that they basically had resources immediately. And they were able to build on those resources to become very, very successful and attain quite quickly the middle class American lifestyle. I think you've seen a lot, particularly around Athens with some Ukraine refugees as well. So, the social capital I think fits.

Sarah Buszka: Absolutely. Well, maybe I have a question for you, Kenny. I'm going off topic here. I hope you're willing to indulge me. I think the concept of social capital and political capital also, which is in the vary environments that we're working in, is a necessary skill to I have, and of course, capital to have. And Kenny, I'm wondering from your lens, I heard you say, "I did school fully remotely. Then I've moved into this kind of hybrid, mostly in person work environment." What was your strategy for building that social capital, political capital during your time remote? And then how has that changed now that you've become more in person, somewhat hybrid? Or has it changed?

Kenny Dockham: I don't know that it's changed much. I think the approach that I've had is you got to take opportunities that are presented to you, because you don't know which of those will pan out the way that you want them to. When I was applying to jobs right after undergrad... I'm a computer science degree. In my mind, I'm going to be a software developer. I'm going to work for one of these software development companies. That's what I had in mind. But you go through 80 applications and you just got to start applying to other things too, like things that seem not quite in the same wheelhouse. So, I applied for a business analyst position at Cal State San Bernardino. And that turned out to be the one. And I would've never thought starting off that that would've been where my career would progress. I was thinking that maybe I come here, do this for a little bit and find what I was looking for. But really, that's what I was looking for.

That position, I didn't know it at the time, but that's what I was looking for, because you get the connectedness of working with other campus partners and developing solutions, which is what you do as a software developer is developing solutions. But you're more connected and you see the whole process. And you understand why you're building the thing that you're building. And I don't think that that has changed much between the... in the end of my undergrad, everything was kind of still remote into how I approach things today. It's just sometimes maybe you have less time to think about it. When somebody comes to you with an in person opportunity, you can obviously ask for time to think about it, but you a lot of times have to form your response right then and there. Even the way you react to what they're saying to you, you don't have the luxury of being able to think about it and write out a response.

And I think that also comes off to some people as more human. They'll feel more excited about offering you that opportunity types of things. I think my approach to gaining that social capital is just to take... obviously, you can't take all opportunities, but take opportunities that are presented to you.

Sarah Buszka: Absolutely. Yeah.

Wes Johnson: So, starting with you, Tim. Is there one thing you would leave with our audience, particularly younger professionals, as they start to navigate their careers similar to Kenny?

Timothy Chester: Yeah. I think a topic we didn't get into is this concept of AI augmentation versus... What's the other phrase? Basically, AI supplanting. You do not want to do work that AI can easily supplant you and make you obsolete, but you want to be very effective with you using AI to augment your work. And so, I think that's another conversation for another podcast, unpacking what that means. I think there's a lot being said about the younger generation, college graduation generation not having as many entry level jobs. I think there are jobs out there, but the competition... We are in a tough spot in the economy. The competition is fierce and your competition is not AI. Your competition is people who are very darn good at AI, at being very, very productive, but at the same time being very, very effective. And that's different between just using ChatGPT to do your homework.

But again, I'm an AI optimist. I think by 2035, a lot of the hype will settle down into the reality of what's truly effective and what's groundbreaking in our economy. I expect all types of cures to diseases and many of the good things, but I think there's quite a bit of disruption to come. And so, I advise my students... I teach consulting in the business school in the MBA program. The ability to navigate complex human issues in business and understanding the personal dimension of that is the superpower. Ain't no AI going to get in the middle of an ERP implementation and settle a dispute between the registrar and financial aid and the tech folks. And so, the ability to develop those skillsets is an incredible skillset, that with AI augmentation, I think it will yield to very, very productive careers. And that's what I teach to my students.

Wes Johnson: Yeah. Thank you for that, Tim. Before I get to you, Kenny, I would also add, Kenny even added an example of one of those vary skills in that moment where someone comes to your office and says, "Hey, I need something," and you have to respond in the moment. That's that human interaction that's going to continue through your career. It happens all the time and you have to form those responses. You got to know when to say, "I can't do it right now," versus, "I can, let's do it. How do you frame that?" Those are those things that you don't get in a Slack message that you can sit and think about before you craft that response. So, Kenny, going to you. What would you leave?

Kenny Dockham: Yeah. It's hard because I'm still early in my career, so what would I say to [inaudible}

Wes Johnson: Makes it even more important.

Kenny Dockham: ... even earlier in their careers. But I think we are in an environment where the job market is very competitive. So, if you're looking at this, the lens of hybrid versus remote, versus in person work, I mean, really right now it seems that the employers are the one who have the... If they want to be an in person institution, you might have to settle for that because the job market is very, very tight out there. But what I would say is that don't be afraid to communicate what your desires are, what you want, because oftentimes employers are willing to work with you because they do understand. And like Sarah was saying, they do see you as a person. A lot of times, institutions, they're big and scary and seem like they don't really care about you, but if you talk to your manager, oftentimes they have that connected relationship with you and they'll be able to work with you.

I think that starting off, you don't want to ruffle any feathers, you don't want to make a splash in the pond, you just want to establish yourself. And I think that's all good. And I think that's true in some circumstances. But I think that just putting yourself out there, communicating with your coworkers and with managers about what works best for you, what you would like to see. It may not result in any change, but at least you tried. You can't be upset about not having remote work when you didn't say anything about it. So, that's what I would say. I would say don't be afraid to communicate and try to negotiate what you would like to see in the work environment.

Sarah Buszka: Absolutely. You have a voice. Use it.

Timothy Chester: And I want to say this. I'm in the baby boom generation. I'm on the tail end, so we tend to do what we're told and we salute the flag and kind of move on. But so, for my generation of leaders and managers, there's a great workforce and a great group of people in Kenny's cohort moving in through the economy. What works for them in terms of their life and their productivity and their ability to drive value is not what it was for me in the early 1990s and the late 1980s. It is fundamentally different. And we have to figure that out and be attuned to that if we want to be successful at leadership, as good leaders. And I think we own that to give people like Kenny the same type of great career path and great fulfilling professional experience that people gave it to me.

Sarah Buszka: Another mic drop moment. Thank you, Tim. That was at least two for the show and Kenny as well. Well, thank you both. I really appreciate this discussion and getting the pulse on remote, in person, hybrid work in higher ed right now. So, thank you both for joining us and sharing your thoughts on the show today.