Navigating Career Transitions

Wes Johnson: Welcome to the EDUCAUSE Rising Voices podcast where we amplify the voices of young professionals in higher education. I'm Wes Johnson and I'm joined by the amazing--

Sarah J. Buszka: Sarah Buszka. Hi everybody.

Wes Johnson: And we're your co-hosts for the show. We're members and friends of the Young Professionals Advisory Committee, also known as YPAC. And today we're going to be talking about navigating career transitions. And Sarah, I imagine this is a very timely topic for you, given that you just recently navigated a career transition. A rather big one. Congratulations to you.

Sarah J. Buszka: Thank you.

Wes Johnson: What are we going to be talking about here with our amazing gifts?

Sarah J. Buszka: We're going to be on a roller coaster. I think that's the theme of 2025 in many regards, but certainly for this show, I'm going to back up a little bit to last year's EDUCAUSE annual conference. The YPAC heard a lot from our constituents in front of the community, really wanting to have more discussions on career transitions and higher education and just in general hearing from us from a young professional's perspective and then from more seasoned professionals' perspectives--what that looks like, how to do it, is there a right way to navigate a career? What happens if you're navigating a career transition that has been decided for you and all the things in between, especially as we go through so much change in higher education? So this topic has been coming up for many years and was especially noticeable I think last year from my own experience with things that were just coming up organically.

Sarah J. Buszka: And it's something we really wanted to bring some attention to here on the show. And like Wes said, I've recently navigated a career transition myself, and we have two amazing guests who have done so also, and we cannot wait to jump into this discussion. So without further ado, I would love to introduce our two guests for the show today to also talk about navigating career transitions with us. The first is another EDUCAUSE fellow award winner, Jay James. Jay James is the cybersecurity operations lead at Auburn Universit--War Eagle!  Jay began his career as the IT specialist at Auburn campus of Edward Via College of Osteopathic Medicine--VCOM. It's a mouthful! In his current role, he has developed and implemented the first ever security operations center in cybersecurity student worker program for Auburn University. Outside of his cybersecurity role, Jay focuses on expanding leadership and mentorship opportunities for young professionals.

Sarah J. Buszka: And Jay has been involved in EDUCAUSE n several ways, including the YPAC and presenting at the EDUCAUSE annual conference and serves as the EDUCAUSE ambassador for Auburn University. Give it up for Jay. And we'd also like to welcome Mike Richichi. Mike is the Chief Information Officer or CIO of Western New England University in Springfield, Massachusetts. Before his appointment to WNE, he spent nine years at Baruch College of the City University of New York as AVP and Deputy CIO, as well as interim VP/CIO. Before working at Baruch, Mike spent over two decades at Drew University in various IT leadership roles. Mike is a 2006 attendee of the Frye Leadership Institute and has been an active EDUCAUSE member for over 20 years. Welcome Mike. So glad to have you on the show.

Mike Richichi: Sure.

Sarah J. Buszka: So speaking of career transitions, I know we mentioned that I recently went through one, but as we just heard in Mike's bio, he just went through a pretty big career transition himself. So I'm kind of curious, Mike, maybe if you'd be willing to kick us off and just tell us about how that went. What were some of the thoughts and feelings that you experienced during this time? How did you really navigate this?

Mike Richichi: Sure, Sarah, first of all, thank you for having me. I definitely feel like I'm a YPAC ally perhaps more than a YPAC member, but I'm really happy to talk with both of you today, all of you today. Thank you. So my story for this career transition actually starts two years ago and it was almost to the day when my former boss at Baruch announced his retirement and I was appointed the interim VP/CIO, and I became the VP/CIO on June of 2023. And I had 11 months as interim VP/CIO, I was a candidate for the job, and I was not selected for the permanent position. And so that was about a year ago that I stepped back from that role and became the AVP/deputy again. And at that point I had to reassess kind of where I was professionally and what I wanted to do professionally.  So I took on some opportunities in terms of coaching and some leadership training--never too late for more leadership training in my opinion. And it really helped me figure out what I wanted to do and how I wanted to do it. So I started applying in earnest for CIO roles all over the country. In a lot of ways I was focusing on positions in the northeast just because of my personal situation. And long story short, the position at WNE presented itself. I really liked the vibe of the campus. They seemed to really like me and I was offered the position in January and I came on in February, and I've been here for almost four months now. So there was a lot of stuff going on along the way in terms of what my choices were, what I felt like I needed to do, and just seeing what was available. And I was fortunate that that was a successful search. It took eight months, but that's what happens.

Sarah J. Buszka: Fine. Yeah. Thank you for sharing. And I know, I mean that a long time from end to end, like you said, it started two years ago, then you had this eight month search period. What I'm hearing is it takes some time, it didn't happen overnight. There were some ebbs and flows, twists and turns rollercoaster of an experience. Is that fair to say?

Mike Richichi: Oh, definitely. And I think the thing you have to learn as you're negotiating your career and deciding it's time for a career transition is that it's not going to happen overnight. It's going to happen over time, and it could take years because of how little of it honestly is in your own control. First of all, there have to be positions out there that you feel you're qualified for, then they have to be positions that you're interested in, then you have to apply. Then the committee has to decide they have interest in you, then they've got to interview you and you might be one of the set of 10 or 12 candidates to interview. You might be one of three finalists and then you have to get the position. All of that is such a funnel that it's really hard to just be able to be in control of that. Obviously you do the best job, you can present yourself as well as you can, but the odds are almost zero for you getting any specific job. So you just have to keep plugging away and keep trying.

Sarah J. Buszka: Right.

Wes Johnson: Well Jay, I'm actually going to kick a similar question to you, but before we get started, to you brother and all your Auburn colleagues watching Go Dogs, but

Sarah J. Buszka: I knew he was going to do it. I knew it. I was waiting for it.

Wes Johnson: War Dogs first all. Okay, with that pleasantry out the way, how about you for career transitions? Are there any more recent ones that you've gone through that you could share how that experience was for you in your career so far?

Jay James: Yeah, I would say the latest one was probably a lot easier than the first major one for me here at Auburn. I had the opportunity to take on a role that just did not exist, and that was very interesting. I think that I was more prepared for it because I was building myself to this role over a period of probably five years. So it was one of those things where I was building myself to a role that I didn't know was going to be created for me. But it happened because I was so focused in on solving a specific problem and I grew to a space where they said, well, this needs an entirety role. So I would say that that has been a very rewarding experience for me, and it hasn't been as hard as my first career transition, I would say, which is when I first started my career and I was thinking back to when Sarah and Mike were talking about, it just takes time.

Jay James: And early in my career, it took me about two and a half years to even get into cybersecurity. And that was a space that was a little tough for me because I was thinking, okay, I just graduated college, this is what I wanted to do. And it's taken me so long to get there. So I was like, okay, I got to do the master's program, I got to get all of these certifications, I have to do all of these steps, but I got a role just on a whim of applying. I said, why not? I applied for it and got it, which was scary for me. And getting into the role, it was a scary space because I didn't finish my master's yet. I felt like I didn't know enough about cybersecurity, but I learned very quickly that I am in this space where I have to grow and learn very fast regardless of how much I knew. So it was a little tougher in the beginning, but once I got the flow of it, it was something that I got used to doing.

Wes Johnson: So I'm hearing some bravery was inserted in there to take a shot and go for it. But you also kind of mentioned, it sounds like at some point after you moved into cybersecurity, there was a aha moment of, I'm enough I can do this. Was that just one particular moment that you recall, or was that gradual over time as you worked in the role?

Jay James: So I learned early on that I have to be a problem solver and if I'm learning the problems that are in the organization, and then that's one piece of advice I give to anyone that's starting in a new role, learn where the problems are and do your role will, but start solving those problems. And that's how you become one more confident in what you do, but you really feel like you're a part of this organization more than just going day by day and just checking off task on a task list. And it makes you feel like you're a part of this community that's driving towards a mission or a vision of the organization. So I think for me, when I learned that, oh, here's this problem that you're having, let me solve it. And then when they saw that I can solve that, I'm like, alright, lemme find a new one I can solve. And I started getting more confidence around that.

Sarah J. Buszka: Yeah, that's really good. I'm kind of hearing both of your stories, Mike and Jay, and I'm curious, I think from our audience's perspective, I know questions that I've got a lot serving as a mentor for young professionals in our industry now for 15 years has been around how do I advance within my institution and when do I know that it's time to perhaps move to a different institution? And I know Mike, with your experience, you are at a new institution, and Jay, I know you've done everything at Auburn and you still are, you're somehow managing to create new things to keep doing at Auburn. And I'm always amazed by that. And I'm kind of just curious maybe if both of you would be willing to talk about this kind of balance of when do I stay, when might I go? Is the grass greener on the other side? Is the grass greener where I water it? How do I recognize when I'm watering rocks? So maybe Mike, if you'd be willing to jump in, wow,

Mike Richichi: Watering rocks! What an image!

Sarah J. Buszka: You're coming from experience. I've done it.

Mike Richichi: Well, I have some perspective here because I spent the first 23 years of my career at the same institution, and I wouldn't have done that if when I was ready to think about my next move, it hadn't appeared for me at the institution I was at. And I was very fortunate I had a sequence of jobs at Drew that were the next logical step. I went from being a systems admin, to an assistant director, to a director, and those were a logical progression. And what happened is that stopped happening, right? I got to a point where I was ready for the next level and that wasn't available to me. So that's when I personally decided to move on from Drew. And that's when the position at Baruch became available to me. And again, as we discussed at the beginning, the same situation happened at Baruch. I got to the level, I was even the interim for that position that I wanted, and I didn't get that permanent position.

Mike Richichi: So that's a pretty clear signal to move on. And so that was an easy one. And perhaps in hindsight, I sometimes think that maybe I could have taken an opportunity at other institutions sooner. I could have been more aggressive in applying for new positions sooner. I just got to WNE, so I'm very much interested in seeing what's going to happen in my current position and see how things evolve over the next couple of years here. So how do you know? I mean, I don't want to be too flippant, but sometimes you just know. And at the same time, again, I was very for-- and I had an idea at Drew, that I might just spend my entire career there and retire from there. And that didn't happen. And that's okay, of course. And so I think you just have to know what's right for you, what's right for your family, what's right for your institution. And I think there is a value to understanding that maybe people can be too long at one institution, maybe your institution needs new voices and new perspectives, and that's okay. So it's really a matter of being attuned to what's going on and evaluating that pretty much every few months, I would say. And just making sure you're still feeling like you're aligned with your institution and that you're on the right track for yourself.

Sarah J. Buszka: Yeah, I'm hearing a lot of even self-reflection skills in that too, really being honest with yourself and knowing if it's something that's right for you or not. And paying attention to that gut feeling, right? Because I think many of us, actually, I know out of everyone here, I've spoken with all of you individually outside of this call, and I know that we've had real discussions around transitions and things that we're kind of seeing in the future and really feeling and what do we do about it. So it's interesting to hear you kind of say that, Mike, and thinking about how we all support each other through that too, just as colleagues as well.

Mike Richichi: And I want to be clear, that's still very much a developing skill for me.

Sarah J. Buszka: Yeah. Well, maybe I'll just to dive in that a little bit more before we switch to Jay. How are you developing that skill, Mike? What's helping you kind of get there?

Mike Richichi: Again, some hard-won knowledge, some great conversations with people like yourself and the people on this call. And really, again, one thing that helped me a lot in the last year was some executive coaching to just get an opportunity to evaluate my own skills and strengths. I took a Clifton Strengths assessment that was enormously helpful; but also to hear from another perspective of, yes, this is what your career has built to, this is where you're at and this is where you could go. And to have that external voice tell me that instead of having to figure it out on my own was incredibly valuable. So yeah, continually talking to people who you trust, whether you consider them mentors, colleagues, even proteges, all of those perspectives help you figure out where you're at and where you're going.

Sarah J. Buszka: Absolutely. And just for our audience to know the Clifton Strengths assessment, I also recommend it. It actually comes as a book, but you get an online code and you do a survey, and what it ultimately puts out is your five top strengths, and you'll actually get a definition of what that strength is, how you might play to it, how you might maybe overplay it, those types of things. So I really recommend doing that for folks to help build that self-reflection, self-knowledge muscle. Jay, without further ado, I see your head bobbing. I know you have so much to add, and I know you are just such an expert on mentorship and growing yourself and leadership skills. So I'm curious, what are your thoughts in all of this?

Jay James: Yeah, well, I'm just nodding my head so much because I talked to Sarah. We've had conversations too, and so many people think that you have to just bounce to the next organization to grow where you are. And sometimes we chase titles versus just thinking about how we can grow where we are. And when I talk to others that are working in higher ed, and I have to remind myself sometimes of this too, is am I optimizing where I am right now? Am I taking advantage of every opportunity? And Sarah, you've probably seen me sign up for every program, be involved with everything I can get my hands into. No, I told myself if I feel like I am no longer growing, then it's time for me to look for something else. And I've been growing aggressively in this space where I'm happy. I've been progressing in roles and actually a few years ago, just get my feelers out there.

Jay James: I just apply for different roles and I interview sometimes and just to see if that's where I want to move forward. And I actually got another role at another institution where I was going to have this director title. I was essentially going to be in charge of their program, but it just did not feel right. I feel like it was not the time to go yet, because after asking more questions in the interview, there was not going to be a lot more opportunity for me to grow professionally in that role. I would be capped out at that role, and I would've lost so many other opportunities being in a larger organization that I'm in right now, even though I don't have the big fancy title of an executive director yet, but I'm growing so much and I'm learning so much now, and I actually got that role I would say two and a half years ago.

Jay James: And I'm thinking about everything that's happened at Auburn in the past two and a half years. And I said, wow, if I would've left, that would've been the wrong move. That would've been the wrong move. So it takes a lot of self-reflection. It takes a lot of being aware of your environment and being in tune with what your goals are and all of the other factors that's involved, but definitely maximizing where you are if you can, and if you truly feel like it's time to make that move and you have that gut feeling is probably time to make that

Sarah J. Buszka: Move. Yeah, I think if on your Clifton strengths finder, Jay, one of your top skills is maximizer.

Jay James: It's up there. Four report. It's in my top tens.

Wes Johnson: Well, Jay, I'd like to stay on you for a minute. I want to tap into your mentorship bag for a second. So say we have a young professional who kind of like what you mentioned earlier, they now are facing a new opportunity, but they're uncomfortable, they're nervous about that big step into the next thing that for whatever reason, they may not feel like they're a hundred percent ready for. What advice would you give them with navigating that transition over, particularly if they feel very comfortable in where they are currently?

Jay James: Well, one community building is so important, and I tell those that if I'm your only mentor, get more, have as many mentors as you can and get different perspectives. Because what I tell you, you're going to get a different opinion and you can choose from the best parts. And also just having your community to lean on and realize that you're not the only one that feels that way. And even those in senior leadership positions feel that way. And I feel that sometimes this imposter syndrome that we have, it's like this thing, elephant in the room that we just don't want to talk about that most people have and don't talk about it. And then we relate more from that end. So it's going to be uncomfortable, and I wouldn't deny that I get uncomfortable at times, but it's something that we just need to jump into for our growth.

Jay James: And just know that you have a support system to lean on when those opportunities come up where you feel like you're not smart enough in this situation. Well, we'll talk through that. I felt that when I got into my cybersecurity role, I knew nothing, and in some respect, I didn't know anything. But I got there. I got there. And giving yourself permission to be a beginner, giving your self permission to know that you're going to get things wrong, and it's a part of the process. And when I got comfortable with making mistakes, then that made me a lot more comfortable in this space to move forward.

Wes Johnson: Thank you for that. Jay. And Mike, actually, I want to go to you too. I'm going to ask it slightly differently. I'll say as from my own personal experience, being a little younger in my career, I'm starting to bump up against the line of what is young professional. But that aside, that aside, I'll say when I've seen particularly the higher level positions like the CIOs or the deputies when they come in, obviously we can't think into your mind and see those whatever doubts or reservations you may have. But from the outside looking in, it is kind of like, oh, well, they clearly know what they're doing from us. It looks like you're asking all the right questions. So tapping into something Jay was mentioning earlier, after many years of experience, does it become easier? Are those doubts always there when you make that step?

Mike Richichi: Oh yeah. And I think when Jay was talking I was thinking a lot about when I first got to Baruch, I'm an AVP/deputy CIO, I'm full of energy and excitement, and I get into meetings and I meeting with other senior leaders, other directors, whatever levels, and they're asking a question and they turn to me and they, "So Mike, what should we do?" And I'm like, "Oh, wait. It's now my job to tell them what to do." I don't get to go talk to somebody else. I don't get to ask my boss. I need to make this decision. I need to decide. I need to rely on my experience and knowledge and wisdom to make a call here. And the first few times that happened, it was jarring. I wasn't used to it, but then I realized, no, this is actually why I got hired and I got to do this.

Mike Richichi: Once I started doing it, I would say something--and obviously it's based on what I know and what I am, and they'd be like, "oh, that's really great." I'm like, "Yes!" and it was gratifying ultimately. And sometimes I'd say, I did something and they'd be like, "Well, no, I don't think that's the direction we were going in." And you learn that maybe, okay, that's okay too. And you learn something and you moved on and you iterate and you do better. And when I got here, very much the same thing. I think luckily for me right now, I've been in conversations and I know that part of the reason I was asked to come here was because they believed I had wisdom and perspective and knowledge to bring to the organization. And when I talk about things, I am resonating well, usually; although I'm still learning the culture, the needs of the organization, the needs of the individuals. But overall, when I say something, I'm like, well, I have a little more confidence now that you hired me to do this. And so you expect me to say things and we'll talk about whether they're good ideas or if they're good ideas, you'll help me figure out how to implement them. Yeah.

Sarah J. Buszka: Yeah. You bring up a really good point, Mike. And this is actually a skill that I've used to help myself with these career transitions. And as Wes mentioned, I'm going through one myself. I just started my new role exactly a week ago. So I'm very fresh. And when I keep reminding myself, I'm in a position now too. I'm now a director of an applied AI lab at a technical college.

Sarah J. Buszka: Yes. So this isn't even fully public yet, so you all get the tea before everyone you got. Thank you. Thank you. And I had a very similar experience. I have folks just turn to me. I report to the chief of staff of the college who reports to the president. And I have folks turning to me in meetings already saying, what do we do? And the same feeling, Mike. I'm like, I'm looking around. I'm like, oh, I guess they're talking to me. But something I keep telling myself and all the time is, well, they hired me for a reason. They hired me because they believe I can do this,

Sarah J. Buszka: So I can do this. And I think it's just kind of been that internal mantra that has really helped me kind get through well this first week. But just remember that I was hired for a reason. Folks believe in me. I believe in myself. We have great people around me and I can do this, but I'm sharing that because Kind of curious for you, Mike and Jay, is there any kind of internal mantra that you just tell yourself or remind yourself when you're kind of going through some of those feelings maybe of anxiety or stress when you're going through these career transitions, when you're sitting in those rooms and folks are looking at you to figure something out and solve a problem? Anything that you tell yourselves to kind of keep your confidence up, maybe Jay, if you're willing to jump in?

Jay James: Well, me knowing my story and how I got from where I was to where I am, I remind myself, I didn't come this far just to go this far. I remind myself I've tested, I've been through a lot worse. So whatever I'm going through right now, I can get through. So I really ground myself in that. And I do really lean on the fact that nothing has, I have to remind myself that these decisions aren't life and death. They're important decisions, and they're important things to do, but I am not a brain surgeon right now, and we are not. I dunno about that. After working at a medical school. I think that is the one got, that's the line. All right. Yeah.

Sarah J. Buszka: That's why I work in technology. I don't want to see blood.

Jay James: Oh, I definitely have stories later for you. But just taking some of that pressure off of myself to know that whatever I do at the end, it's going to be okay. That's something I really have to lean in and ground myself in.

Sarah J. Buszka: That's great. Thank you.

Mike Richichi: Yeah, there's a lot there. I think my internal mantra, certainly for this position has been something along the lines of they wanted you to be here. They hired you, they hired you because of you. And the other thing I thought of durin--this was when I took my last position at Baruch, I remember coming home from work one day, and I was really stressed about a lot of things, and I was complaining to my spouse, and she looks at me and goes, "You wanted this job!" And I'm like, I did. So that's also one of my internal mantras sometimes it's like, "You wanted this job, so you wanted the challenges that you're facing right now." And another thing I just wanted to comment on, kind of related to what Jay was saying earlier about going through bad times, and certainly as I was transitioning to my Baruch position to transitioning, and I had what I would consider some professional setbacks in terms of opportunities that I wasn't able to get, I would think that this is happening to me and it's only ever happened to me, and it's awful, and I'm so awful and everything's awful.

Mike Richichi: And I talked to several colleagues and mentors, and most of them would share their tales of missing out on an opportunity or being denied something they wanted dearly professionally. And I had to learn. And literally, I had someone who I think you probably all know, but I won't mention by name, but she was like, "Get over yourself!" And I'm like, "That's exactly what I needed to hear! Thank you!" And so another one of my mantras may be, occasionally, "Get over yourself!" because what's happening to you is not the first time anything like whatever's happened to you is happening to anyone. It's happened to almost everyone in our profession. And you just have to learn to accept that things happen and you need to deal with them. And how you respond is your professional ethics and your professional demeanor.

Jay James: And I do want to add on top of that, that sometimes, especially if you have the type A personality where you're working really hard and things, all the tasks that are building up all of the things you have to do, you're dropping some of the balls along the way while trying to stay on top of everything. I feel sometimes that those type A personalities forget to give themselves grace and all of this. And I had to learn that about myself, that being very aggressive in my career and me doing the things that I do, sometimes I forget one, the things that I have accomplished up to this point. And then I also forget the situation that I'm in sometimes that my success isn't relying on just me in terms of certain projects and things. There's other people involved. So sometimes I have to take a step back and give myself a little grace. Sometimes the same grace that I give to my peers and my students that I have, or the people that work under me, the grace that I extend to them, I need to also extend to myself. So that's something I just wanted to add as well.

Sarah J. Buszka: That's great. Thank you. We all need to be giving more grace to ourselves this year. We've all been through so much. I know, right? That's just such a great piece of advice. Thank you. Thank you both.

Wes Johnson: Yeah. It makes me think about a little nugget of knowledge. When I first became a help desk manager, one of the greatest directors I ever had the opportunity to report to in my career, she saw me just trying. I did not come up in the help desk, one of those backgrounds. I came up in other parts of the organization and I was having a conversation with her one day along the lines of what you all were explaining, what just felt like there was a lot of stuff going on. I saw a lot of opportunity and I felt like I was dropping stuff here and there. And I'm just like, I'm looking at her and I'm saying, Hey, every time I see you go in the room, it just seems like you got it all figured out. And I don't feel the same way. And I feel exposed sometimes when I get, as I'm doing this transition, and she's like, look, at the end of the day, we're all just trying.

Wes Johnson: There's experience that helps direct that try. And the more experience you get in some ways, you get a little better. In some ways. You might get a little blinded and get it wrong. But I think most important is you just keep trying, keep going at it. You'll get a little better. You'll have your successes. And then when you have a failure, learn from that. Give yourself space and time and keep going. And if you can nail that down, you're probably one of the greatest candidates that exist in the pipeline. Those are the best candidates. It's not necessarily the ones that have a 99.9% success rate. It's the ones that keep trying and admit to mistakes and own up and learn from them and keep going forward and try again. That's all we're really doing. So I hear that a lot. Just keep going. Just keep trying, y'all.

Sarah J. Buszka: That's the message of today's episode. Keep going, keep trying, you all right. Well, thinking as we start wrapping up this conversation, thinking a little bit future-forward-looking, when we do take on these new roles, we've gone through kind of this struggle. We've figured out they want to take on a new role. We've done the interviewing process. Now it's just like you, Mike, brand new on the job. How do we maybe kind some parting advice for our audience. I'm curious, how would you suggest to folks how they can best set themselves up for success when they're starting a new position? How do you recommend how folks might be able to quickly build credibility and then establish themselves in their role quickly right away, hit the ground running? Any kind of laser nuggets of advice that you'd be willing to share? Starting with you, Mike?

Mike Richichi: Sure. Obviously, it's important to get to know the community as quickly and as thoroughly as possible. So it's meeting with lots of individuals. We call it the listening tour. I spent most of my first month or two really just talking to senior leadership, critical roles, key people at the institution, and learning that, going to the meetings where decisions are made. Obviously President's Cabinet is one of them, but there are other organizations and groups on this campus where people get things done and being part of that. And part of it is also learning--and it's weird how to describe this--where the power is, right? So there are people in an organization, especially I think in higher ed, who have a lot of power. That's not necessarily structural power, but it's personal power, it's institutional power, it's other ways of influence and helping the organization, and learning who those people are and how they interact and learning how to interact with them, I think is a very valuable skill as especially a new leader in an organization. So that can be very valuable. And it's really, again, I'm learning my place in this organization both with my own team and with senior leadership and with the other members of campus. So learning those negotiations and playing that out. And you wouldn't be surprised all my Clifton Strengths are Personal and Strategic. So that's what I focus on because that's how I do what I do well. So building those relationships, building those connections, understanding where people are and how they play into one another is what I'm focusing on right now.

Sarah J. Buszka: That's great. Yeah. Knowing the power dynamics sounds crucial, especially for a position like yours at that level. Jay, what about you?

Jay James: Yeah, so Mike probably said everything that I'll just, I do want to add some perspective of my role of transitioning into a new role while still at Auburn. I took that as if it was a brand new role. So I almost reintroduced myself to everyone in my new role and space and then asked them questions more around/towards me and my leadership role versus the role that I was before. I've seen others that have done that, and I've seen how that has helped them out because I knew that transitioning into this new role where there were many people across the university that might still see me as that same person in this engineering role, I'm like, "No, it's a little different and our conversations are going to be a little different." And I anticipated based off of some of the cultural norms and some of the power dynamics, how my conversations with them now are going to be a lot different and there might be some tension sometimes. So going through and just reestablishing those relationships, talking about where my role is now, I think that's been very helpful for me when I made that type of transition.

Sarah J. Buszka: That's really good advice just to kind of consider it--even if you are physically in the same institution--still to consider it as "I'm new in a new role. Let me reintroduce myself. Let me help you see me at a new light in a new capacity." That's great. Great advice. Thank you.

Wes Johnson: So I guess then we can ask the final round. I'll start with you, Mike. What's one key takeaway message or lesson that you want to leave with the audience?

Mike Richichi: I think it's really important to not feel bad for yourself, to not get set back by anything that happens professionally for you. Everything is learning. Everything is an opportunity. Sometimes missed opportunities are averted disasters. So you always have ways of doing and progressing and dealing. And anything that looks like a setback initially may not be in the long run. So it's really important to just keep focusing on what matters to you and focus on what your future holds for you, because it's an open book. And as long as you're doing what you can and keeping in touch with who you are, you should be able to succeed.

Sarah J. Buszka: That's great.

Wes Johnson: Thank you. Jay, what about you?

Jay James: Yeah, I would say for me two, remember that you are building a career and it goes beyond just doing well at this particular job. Something that was I learned a few years in is that I am building myself as this cybersecurity leader, not just this person that's doing a really good job at Auburn. So being really involved in EDUCAUSE being really involved in other cybersecurity organizations and doing well in my job, but not being so closely tied to it that, let's say that if I were to lose my job or if I were to not get that next promotion, it doesn't affect me as much. I don't take it as personal or I don't think of it as this setback. So I'm looking at it holistically of I'm doing well in my job, I'm building myself in my career, and I'm going to do great wherever I go because this is the type of person I've built myself to. And I know at some point I'm going to be looking at future opportunities. So grounding myself in that I know that I'm taking all of me, that I've built my career to this new role and not be as intimidated by it. So think about your career more holistically and not just tying yourself to your organization. Do dive into the vision and the mission and do well, but also having your own personal brand and your own within that space.

Wes Johnson: I really like that one, two combo. I kind of walked away with Mike saying, regulating your internal voice and saying, you got this. Just keep doing what you got to do and then jump into Jay and saying, but it's, think about it broader than just the role you're in today. Yeah. I really like that. Thank you. Thank you both.

Sarah J. Buszka: That was a good mic drop episode I think to wrap all of this conversation up. So thank you both for being here and sharing your advice and wisdom and stories. We really appreciate it.

Mike Richichi: Glad

Jay James: To be

Sarah J. Buszka: Here.

Mike Richichi: Yeah, thank you for having us. Really appreciate it.