Mentorship Matters: Cultivating Mentor-Mentee Connections

Wes Johnson: Welcome to the EDUCAUSE Rising Voices podcast, where we amplify the voices of young professionals in higher education. I'm Wes Johnson and I'm joined by the amazing, the woo-ing, the greatest.

Sarah J. Buszka: I'm the Hype Woman, Sarah Buszka.

Wes Johnson: And we're your co-hosts for the show. We're members and friends of the edco Young Professionals Advisory Committee, also known as YPAC. And today we're going to be talking about a really great topic, something that's been critical in my own career, I imagine Sarah, yours as well. And we'll absolutely get to our amazing guests here soon in a minute. But we're going to be talking about mentorship. I can say personally, I've been both mentor and mentee as someone who came into it that wasn't even thinking about it when I came in. Mentorship has been key to me even getting exposed to opportunities to even consider career progressions. Not even to learn about the work itself, but to even know what it is and all the different things that you can do in this space. And I imagine the same could be said across many different fields, and it's been, again, majorly impactful in my own career and not just mine.

Wes Johnson: According to a 2019 ed study, 86% of the mentees that reported on this study said it was a moderate or great contribution to their own career. And so it really is a powerful, I would say, not even just to your career, but just to your life in general. It's an opportunity to have at least at minimum two perspectives. I've been part of group mentorships as well, but at least at minimum two perspectives that might be different, whether that be from personal life experience to professional life experience. And bringing those two things together really is, in my eyes, a mentee to mentee situation. But sometimes it is a benefit to have the mentor mentee separation, just to make sure you get what you need out of it. But that said, I think we can pass it over to Sarah to talk about the guests so we can get into this topic.

Sarah J. Buszka: Yes. Thank you so much, Wes. I am so excited. Well, I'm always excited on this show, but we have incredible guests here today, and I'm really excited for this conversation. One of our guests has been a mentor of mine and someone whom I very much admire, and we have another up and coming voice on the show who will certainly, I'm hoping at least serve as a peer mentor of mine and others of the YPAC and beyond from this conversation. So without further ado, I'd like to introduce our two guests. First we have David Seidel. He serves as Miami University's Vice President for information and technology and the CIO where he holds broad responsibility for it for the institution. He has LED award-winning. You heard it here at folks. Award-winning, award-winning IT services team through major initiatives including the institution's workday, migration, identity management modernization with rapid identity, CrowdStrike, EDR implementation and navigating Google storage changes. Just a few things. Folks got a lot under your belt there. And David also serves on the EDIKA board. He has helped create the edika new Managers Institute for Cybersecurity Professionals and is a top selling cybersecurity author who has published 24 books, 24 folks. He's a maker, woodworker, a blacksmith, an avid reader, and loves to cook. Welcome, David.

David Seidl: It is an absolute pleasure to get to join you all today.

Sarah J. Buszka: Thank you. And next up we also have Emily Perry joining us. Emily Perry is a software supply chain manager at the University of Arizona. She oversees the contract lifecycle and internal supply chain for the enterprise software portfolio, and additionally, she manages IT, procurement, vendor management and contracting. And as someone who did not start off in technology or business, me either. You're among friends here, Emily. Mentorship has been critical to her career path. Emily is also a member of Internet Two's business procurement and legal advisory committee. She's also a certified software asset manager and holds a supplier relationship management certification through World Commerce and Contracting, who we have some impressive individuals on the show today. Thank you. Welcome, Emily.

Emily Perry: Thanks so much. I'm so glad to be here.

Sarah J. Buszka: I love when I get winded when I read through everyone's bios. It's such a great sign. Well, thank you both for being here. And to kind of kick things off, we always ask our favorite question here on the show, what is your superpower? And Emily, I'm curious to hear what your superpower is.

Emily Perry: Oh, I'm first. Okay. I've thought a lot about this because I love your podcast and I've heard other people answer this. Thank you. My superpower is curiosity and I had to land on that because there's a lot of other superpowers I could have named, but really it is curiosity. I really ask a lot of questions. I like to get down in the weeds and figure things out. And I get involved in a lot of stuff because I like to know how it's done and how it comes together, like how the sausage gets made. I like all that chaos and messiness of creation.

Sarah J. Buszka: Well, you're in the right place, especially now. That's a great superpower. And David, what is your superpower?

David Seidl: So Emily, curiosity is frequently an answer I give in that context. It's also why I'm in trouble a lot of the time. If you ever hear me say, oh, how hard could it be? That's usually I'm about to dig myself a pretty deep hole. But I thought about the context of this podcast and I said, I should actually ask a bunch of the people who are around me, what my superpower is and hold that mirror up because I think that's one of the really useful things is somebody outside telling you that. And I heard something that really means a lot to me, and folks told me I am a connector. And that really resonated because I for years would point people at the edge of Cause conference and say, go find a super connector. They will introduce you to people and magically your life will change. And then somebody walks up to me and says, Hey, by the way, you're doing that. Oh. And so hearing that from friends was useful. And then as I was thinking about that, I also wondered what my kryptonite was. And I think at some point we should ask each other, what are you bad at? Because it's good to know that as well as knowing what your superpower is.

Sarah J. Buszka: What are you bad at? David, you tee that one up perfectly. I have to. I'm curious.

David Seidl: It's interesting. I think one of the things is that I am a person who likes to build those bridges, and so conflict can be my kryptonite. If I know I'm walking into conflict, I have to prepare myself for it. My team knows that if you need me to be the angry CIO, that they need to give me some notice. And so they'll come in, we've got a vendor we're having problems with. This is your one hour notice that we need David to be grumpy, and it takes me time to become that person that I can, okay, I'm upset about this because that's, and so I know that they know that and we know how to work around that in ways that make me still useful for them.

Sarah J. Buszka: I love that. Thank you for indulging me by asking you that off the cuff. David and I also relate to that as a fellow mid Westerner myself. It definitely takes me a lot to get grumpy like that too, and conflict, right. So that's really interesting. Thank you for sharing.

David Seidl: It's hard because as a leader, conflict is part of the role. I think that's something that kind of increases as you become more senior. And I would much rather work hand in hand with people, but conflict is a natural part of the job. And so I have to say this is part of the job and I have to be at least okay at it. I don't have to necessarily be great at it. I shouldn't necessarily be out seeking conflict, but I've had to learn how to address my own avoidance of conflict more directly than I would've in other roles.

Sarah J. Buszka: I feel like this could be a great podcast topic all in itself. So I want to put that in my mental thought cabinet and potentially invite you back in the future, David, to have a discussion around that because that is a necessary and urgent topic always, especially in this day and age.

David Seidl: You know me, you can sign me up, tell me when the kryptonite episode is.

Sarah J. Buszka: That sounds fun. Okay, noted. Thank you.

Wes Johnson: So I guess hopefully no conflict comes up in these questions around mentorship, but we shall see. First question I'll throw at Emily's Way. So Emily, what has your experience been with mentorship and how has it benefited you?

Emily Perry: I've had a lot of experience with mentorship. In my introduction, I was not in it, so I've always been pretty uncomfortable in my roles. Every one of my jobs has been a new role for whatever department I've gone into. So I've had to create a bunch. And so I've had both informal and formal mentors. A lot of the informal mentorship is mostly peer mentoring or bosses that I've had, but I've also had formal mentorships through different programs that were offered either through the university I was at or through cost. So I've also had them internal to the organization and external to the organization. And the ones that I've found are most helpful are those external to the organization. They provide a little bit of perspective that I can't quite see because I'm so heavily involved. And then I've also had mentorships that are inside my area of expertise and then outside of my area of expertise, because again, that helps provide that extra perspective that you may not have while you're really hardcore in the work. So yeah, I have a lot of experience with mentors.

Wes Johnson: I'm curious, Emily, oh, go ahead.

Sarah J. Buszka: Go ahead. Go ahead. Both Wes and I are very curious. Those are also our superpowers, so

Wes Johnson: That's the conflict right there. We usually gather for Who's going to get the question first? I went today. There you go, Emily, you called out the kind of formal verse, informal the peer versus going through a program. I've had a few folks in my career so far and one of the big questions they'll ask me, particularly younger professionals, will ask me, how do I get the mentorship, particularly when there's not a program to jump into, to sign up for and get arranged. Are there any, I know with the informal, were there any cases where you had to actually ask for those kind of interactions or they just kind of happen? Do you mind sharing a little bit about that?

Emily Perry: Sure. A lot of it happens organically. The work that I do is very interdisciplinary, so I work with a lot of people across the university. And so really it's when I find somebody that I really gel with or find somebody that is willing to talk to me in a vulnerable way and we're able to make a good connection. That's where I find my best mentors. And often I consider them mentors but don't formally ask, which is why it's somewhat informal and they're fine with that. I mean, nobody really has said anything. I have had one instance where I'm like, will you be my mentor? And then I feel like once I ask that question, the meetings become a little bit more formal and we have more of a goal and progression and natural progression, or I'm sorry, formalized progression, but they both provide so much benefit because you can get something out of either type of relationship.

Sarah J. Buszka: I love that you called out the informal, informal piece because I think at least very early on when I was starting my career journey, and like you Emily, I also did not have a formal IT background at all. I was trying to be a medical doctor, actually, long story about that one, but basically ended up in it. I don't like blood. But anyway, I think an interesting thing is when I was first thinking about how do I get mentors, I thought it had to be this very formal process and you need a formal mentor and you have to ask someone, will you be my mentor? And that alone, at least initially, was a huge bridge and hurdle for me to get over just mustering up that courage to ask someone. It's kind of like dating, right? It's like you hope they say yes back, right?

Sarah J. Buszka: You're asking someone out and it feels weird. So I really like that you pointed out that informal, informal piece because actually I think David and another reason why I'm so glad he's here, I consider him a mentor of mine, but I've never kind of formally said, will you be my mentor, David? But I have reached out to him and said, Hey, can you help me with my personal branding? And that kind of felt more formal to me, and I was scared to do it, by the way, David, but it ended up working out and now I feel like we're friends and now we have each other's phone numbers and we text and it's great. I can also attest to David's superpower of connecting because he has connected me with so many folks and vice versa. So it's just a really kind of beautiful thing. But what I'm hearing from you, Emily, is I just need to ask. I just need to ask the question or ask the formal question, but I have to put myself out there at some point.

Emily Perry: Absolutely. It is very important to be brave and just to go for it and ask, all they can say is no, and then you move on, right?

Sarah J. Buszka: Yes. And then you move on and avoid conflict maybe. Yes. But I'm curious, David, we've been talking about the situation, but I'm curious. I know you as someone who has just, you're so generous with your time in our community and you mentor countless folks, you are a mentee of others and countless other folks, some of them who are also my mentors. You just have such an amazing mentorship network and I'm really curious to kind of hear more about your experience with mentorship and how you've benefited from it.

David Seidl: Absolutely. There is so much paying forward that I owe. I can never pay the debts that I owe, and that is a thing that has a multiplier to it. And so there's a moment where you realize that you're acting as a mentor and you never knew you would and that somebody values what you have to say. In fact, a lot of people that I talk to, they'll say, well, what would I have to offer? And there is somebody out there who needs your perspective. No matter what career level you're at, no matter who you are, there is somebody out there who if heard your voice, their life would be better for having you in it because of that. And so I've benefited like Emily, I'm so glad, Emily, that you said the formal and informal, I'm going to say that again because that's so important. I didn't even know I was being mentored at times until I reflected back on sometimes a decade or two later and said, oh yeah, that changed my life. And then there have been times where to what Wes said, there's no formal structure and one needs to exist. And this is one of the reasons why I love YPAC. You all see a hole, you're like, okay, there's a hole. We're going to fix that. And a bunch of motivated people swarm in and then magically a thing exists. This podcast came out of that sort of scenario.

David Seidl: Easily 12, 15 years ago, I was a chief information security officer role. I was leading security at Notre Dame and I was at Security Professionals Conference, which was the old version of security conference. I was talking to a friend and I walked out of a session. I said, I'm a little frustrated because if you're a chief information security officer, the lead security person for an organization, there is no one like you to learn from. You are it, and you are as high as you get. There is no mentoring structure around you. And usually if you drop pretty big circle around that institution, there's probably no one like you in higher ed in a 50, 90 mile radius, sometimes across half the country. And so we had this gap in how folks in those roles who were seeking those roles could find mentors. And so I walked out and talked to a friend, I talked to Brian Baston, who many of you probably know as well, and we grumbled in the hall a little bit, and we grabbed Valerie Vogel, who was the deputy for the security organization, said, Valerie, we have a wonderful terrible idea.

David Seidl: We should build an entire formal mentoring program for CISOs and equivalents across the entire United States because we don't know any better and therefore it can't be impossible. And she said, cool, let's do that. And we proceeded to spend the next couple of years matching somewhere between 15 to a hundred folks who wanted mentors at that level and in that specific space with people by creating a matchmaking group and then using all of the people's knowledge and saying, Hey, what shape and type of mentor do you need to be successful? And we'll find you the best match, and if you bounce, we'll find you a backup. But we were really doing back to the dating metaphor, we were helping people in a speed dating way find somebody who's going to be a good match for the things that they needed. And so I think one of my lessons learned was it is really good sometimes to identify the gap and help fill it. And another lesson learned would be that those formal and informal personal relationships are a big factor as well. I'm here in this seat right now because of a couple of my mentors.

David Seidl: I kind of knew that I wanted to be in a role where I was able to solve problems I couldn't solve in my reports to the CIO role. And that's kind of been a driver across many of my roles. There are problems I can't solve in this seat, maybe I could try the next thing. But I was also very comfortable in what I was doing. I was at a great institution. I was at Notre Dame. I had a really wonderful team and one of my mentors likes to make me uncomfortable. And she says, you have been comfortable for too long. It's time to get out of your rut, climb out of it and look around. And another one of my mentors started sending me jobs that she said, you could do this. You should go apply to this. And that got me to do a CIO interview.

David Seidl: I didn't make it to the second round. That was the first time I hadn't been hired for a job that I'd applied for in quite a while. So that was a bit of a, Ooh, okay, this is a different world. The next one I applied for was Miami, and that's because my mentor sent them to me. And so a recruiter calls up and says, Hey, are you interested in this? It was in my box, my description of where I'd like to be. And halfway through the call that I took, they told me that my mentor had sent them to me accidentally. And then they were a little bit, we're supposed to tell you that she us to you. I said, that's great. She's a mentor. We're going to be okay. But I would not be here today. I would not be having this conversation the same way if people had not cared enough to push me, to challenge me, to give me a different perspective and to tell me that maybe the things that I can bring are useful to an organization at this scale of this type.

Sarah J. Buszka: I love that. I want to also update your superpower, David, to be matchmaker instead of connector if you're willing to accept that.

David Seidl: I feel like that one leads to some strange scenarios.

Wes Johnson: It sounds like amongst all of us, mentorship has been quite critical, I'd say in where we are today where we'd like to go tomorrow. Jumping back to Emily, and I'd also like to hear from David, in your experience so far, what qualities of that mentorship, mentee relationship have been critical to the success of those relationships?

Emily Perry: So some of the qualities that were most important for all of my relationships were trust and vulnerability. You have to have shared space where you can be completely open and trust the person, otherwise you're not going to get very far. Those have been my most successful ones is when I have this ability to just lay it all out there, forget the politics, forget whatever else could be in the way, but just really be open about what the problems are. And again, being open-minded as well. I think as a mentor, being open-minded about what somebody is bringing to you is super important. And then having those active listening skills. You guys are displaying them beautifully, by the way. Well, thank you.

Wes Johnson: It's on the list. It's on the list of our superpowers. We got quite a few here. Podcast. I'm

Emily Perry: Sorry, go ahead. I remember one of my best mentors, he would always after I was speak, would say, what I'm hearing you say is, and I've heard you guys say it, it's such a great phrase because sometimes I've had to correct him and be like, that's not really what I meant. I said something wrong. And so I feel like having that vulnerability to be wrong and just have time to explain yourself or I don't know, go deeper into what the real issue is that you're trying to solve is really beneficial and essential for that relationship.

Sarah J. Buszka: Absolutely. I love that you mentioned the vulnerability piece, and David, thank you for your vulnerability in sharing what you did with your experience, applying to a job and not getting it, and having that be your first time, not getting a job that you've applied for. That's always a hard thing to go through, and I agree. Without the vulnerability piece, it's tough to move forward. I'm kind of curious, Emily, if you're willing to, let me dig in a little bit. How do you cultivate that vulnerability?

Emily Perry: Oh, man,

Emily Perry: I don't know. So I am very open and I'm very willing to say that I am not perfect. I'm not the smartest in the room. And so for me, it kind of comes naturally. I think that if it doesn't come naturally to you, something that you need to think about is where your ego is and what your ego might be standing in the way of you progressing. And so if you can drop that and say, you know what? My ambitions don't matter right now. This is the problem I'm dealing with. How can I get through that? I'm not sure. That's a great answer, but that's

Sarah J. Buszka: No, that's great. Mic drop. We love to drop our mics on this show and I'm going to drop one for you. That was Oh, thank you. Great. I love that. Thank you.

Wes Johnson: If I could too, I also call out, I believe in, there's a top 10 things about mentorship or something along those lines. And I'll call out a yes and to Emily, but it's also okay to, if you, particularly in formal situations where you get matched, it turns out maybe it's not a fit. Maybe you are vulnerable, but the other person isn't the same way. It is okay to just call that out and say, Hey, you know what, we tried, but this didn't really work out. I'm going to seek a different situation to get into it. And there's no evil or wrong in that sometimes just two people don't necessarily mix that. That helps push things forward in the direction you want to go. So I think it's okay, which I guess I could argue that's a moment of vulnerability. Well, to be honest and say, Hey, this isn't really working, let's try something else, which I think will be a better use of time for both parties involved. But David, I was going to pass it on to you.

David Seidl: The resource there is time on both sides. And as a mentee or a mentor, if you're not getting what you need out of that, and it really is a both sided equation, stop wasting each other's time. A very good friend of a mentor of mine is really good at telling people you've gotten everything you're going to get out of me, and I am not as good at that note, the conflict of avoids. And so I'm much more likely to nudge and say, are you getting what you need out of this? And so there are times where her answer is going to be like, go forth, fly, fall. I don't care. You're done. This is what you're getting out of me and I'll do it a different way. But I think that the ability to recognize on both sides when it's successful and to be fully engaged to get that is really important.

Sarah J. Buszka: That's a really good point too. I love that.

Emily Perry: Yeah.

Sarah J. Buszka: Yeah. So David, kind of building on this, you just highlighted one quality that I think is essential for a successful mentor mentee relationship, being able to draw that line in the sand, know what you can give, know what can't. What other qualities do you think help make that successful mentor mentee relationship?

David Seidl: Emily talked about broad and vulnerable mentoring relationships, which are pretty holistic. And I think recognizing that sometimes you need one or two things from a mentor and that you may get rid of the rest, but you need those things that can also be a really successful relationship, but it's a narrower relationship. And being able to know when you walk in what you're hoping to get and then to recognize what you will actually get can be very powerful because then you can focus on the benefits. I went to a senior leader in Notre Dame's administration who was completely disrupting the senior level of the organization. And I said, I don't know what I want to learn from you, but if I buy you coffee, can you make me smarter?

David Seidl: I love that. I love that too, because I saw somebody who was pushing a institution that tended to be conservative and is all those things you would expect from a aroma Catholic institution that was run by a priest, all of those things and very successfully. But he was brought in to disrupt and he was making people uncomfortable and in ways that were not good. And I thought, wow, I will learn so much faster with somebody like him in a room than I will doing exactly what I'm doing right now. And so we would get together, I'd asked him maybe a couple times, maybe three or four times if I was really lucky a year just to sit down to talk with him about what was going on in the institution and get his perspective. And I knew I wasn't going to get my specific career path.

David Seidl: He was not in it. I knew I wasn't going to get, how does David become a better human being? But I knew I was going to get, here's what it looks like from a perspective that came in from outside that is disrupting the organization and that is seeing Notre Dame through a lens that I don't have, and I got all of those things and I send him a note every couple of years and say, Hey, the things you taught me, still paying off. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you. Because he changed my perspective of an institution that I was in by so very much by doing that.

David Seidl: The last two things that I'll offer is the biggest gift that a mentee can bring is engagement and preparedness and coming ready and knowing what you want to do. The folks you show up and it's just a conversation that's fun. It's fun to talk to friends, but it can help to have some intent. And then on the mentor side, something that Emily was pointing out is that willingness to fully listen and to the way I like to try to approach this is to say, what do you need from me today in this moment? Do you need a suggestion? Do you need me to listen? Do you need me to be a friend and comfort you? Do you need me to make it hard and challenge you? Where do you need me to land? Because a lot of the time I can flex into any of those roles. Some of them I will not be as good at. I might go point you to one of my other friends and be like, they're going to make you way better this circumstance. But a lot of time I can flex as a mentor and try to be the person that you need that day. And I think that's an important thing if we can do that for the people we work with.

Sarah J. Buszka: I love that. Love that. I just keep saying, I love that. That's my favorite phrase on this show is I hear these nuggets of wisdom. I just say, I love that. I do thank

Wes Johnson: One day we're going to have to do a episode of I love that montage. Top hits. I love that. Yeah, that'll

Sarah J. Buszka: Be great. Oh my gosh, our producers, please don't. Excellent. That'll be funny. But

Wes Johnson: Well look y'all, I know we could probably spend the rest of this hopefully for everyone beautiful Friday talking this through and maybe we should do a part two at some point. But to wrap us up, I'll keep it on you, David, and then go to Emily. For someone who's new to mentoring and wants to get the most out of it, what's one piece of advice do you want them to walk away with from this discussion?

David Seidl: There's something I've said in a lot of context, so some of you may have heard this before. I really believe that it's really helpful to have two mentors rather than one at your resting state. It's good to have two. And what I want you to do is I want you to have a mentor who's a lot like you because they will celebrate on the days that you need celebrated. They will understand the path you were walking. They will be there hand in hand with you. And then I want you to have a mentor who is very different from you because they will make you uncomfortable. They will challenge you. They will hold up a mirror and say, Hey, by the way, did you know you look like this? And that's not the person you want to talk to on your bad days probably, but that is the person that you absolutely want to talk to when you're growing. And if you have both of those flavors in your life, you can pick and choose. And it doesn't to just be two, but if you can have two, you will be a better person for the growth that they will put through for you and that you'll find new things to do just because of those people in your life.

Wes Johnson: Excellent. Emily, what about you?

Emily Perry: I mean, that's a good one. How do you follow that, David? I've written down four things. I feel like this was a mentoring session. The one thing I can think, I've been a mentee more than a mentor, and what I've really found is that the best mentoring sessions as a mentee have been when I am able to set my ego and ambitions aside and really listen, being able to explain what I'm going through and then listen to what the mentor has to say without any sort of judgment and really be open-minded to take in the advice that you're given. Because a mentor has a lot of experience, generally mentor is the person that you're going to for help. So be ready to accept that help. That's my one advice.

Wes Johnson: Alright, that is great. So it takes two. And listen, I think that's an excellent way to end it out. So thank you, David. Thank you, Emily. I really enjoyed this discussion. Wish we could go another hour as there's still more questions, but again, maybe we'll come back after the I love it. Montage and do a part two. Thank you both. Thank you both and the Rising Voices podcast.