A Behind the Scenes Look at Mentorship in Practice

Sarah J. Buszka: Welcome to the EDUCAUSE Rising Voices podcast, where we amplify the voices of young professionals in higher education. I'm Sarah Busker, your co-host, and I would be joined by Wes Johnson, our other co-host, but he's unfortunately out today and he's let us carry on in his stead. So I'm going to do my best to host this solo today. We are frieHernds and members of the Young Professionals Advisory Committee or YPAC. So today is an episode I am just elated and ecstatic and excited to have because this is the first time ever in this podcast that we are having a second part of a show because the first part was so dang good. And the guests that were joining us again for the second time, or David Seidel and Emily Perry to have a second follow-up conversation on the topic of mentoring. Since mentoring is so important, and we know that January was National Mentoring Month, we actually got a lot of feedback and outpouring of folks saying, Hey, this was so good.

Sarah J. Buszka: How do we do this? What does this look like next? How does mentoring actually work in practice instead of in theory? And if you folks haven't listened to our first episode, I highly encourage you to go back and listen to it. We did a great job of setting the foundation, laying that table and giving you some really great basics to kick off a mentoring conversation and what that relationship looks like. For today's episode, we have a really special treat because another amazing thing that happened on this show and what the ED Young Professionals Advisory Committee is all about is amplifying voices of young professionals in higher education. And we can say that we finally did that with this episode with tangible evidence because David and Emily met each other for the first time on our first episode, and then after established their own mentoring relationship just from having met each other on this show.

Sarah J. Buszka: And I can't think of a better, more incredible way to kind of honor what we're doing and to really show that we're walking or talk than about hearing this experience. And ironically, I've also been mentoring with David since we last spoke for a handful of things that we will dive into in this show. So for today, we thought it might be really interesting to kind of show you folks, our listeners, what a mentoring conversation actually looks like and feels like. By modeling it for you. Here, we are going to invite you into a real live mentoring session. This is not scripted. We have no idea where we're going to go. We actually have joked that we're going to go off the rails, so folks strap in. We're going to be going off the rails in the best way possible though. So with that, David and Emily, thank you so much for being here and welcome back.

David Seidl: Thank you, Sarah.

Emily Perry: Thanks for having me.

David Seidl: I'm going to sneak in right away and say something because I want to recognize Emily for doing two really important things. So you said that we established that relationship, she immediately reached out, and that connection, self-empowering, presuming there's probably a space for you to empower, is a really good thing to do. The work that you do is going to get you there. And she followed up again and we had a really, really good conversation there as well. And that is everything you can ask for from somebody who's looking for that kind of mentor-mentee relationship is to do that. And so that was a treat, and then we got to come back and do this. Now. I'll also observe, you do not have to be on the Rising Voices podcast to find a mentor. There are other paths through. This is just coincidence as we were having a conversation, it turned into something that we all thought was worth continuing.

Sarah J. Buszka: Thank you so much for sharing that. Kudos to you, Emily.

Emily Perry: Oh, I think I said my superpower was curiosity last time, and David had said a couple phrases and I wrote 'em all down and I was like, I need to get more information. So really that's just what spurred it. I was curious about how he would expand on some of the things he said. And man, it was a great conversation. I took so much away from that. So thanks David.

Sarah J. Buszka: Yes,

David Seidl: You're welcome. It was a pleasure.

Sarah J. Buszka: Well, I'm actually, if you're willing, I'm kind of curious to dive into maybe what you took away from that conversation, Emily, and if there's anything you'd like to share with our listeners too from what you learned.

Emily Perry: I took a whole bunch of notes. I really like that answer. What I started with David, was that he had said that as you go higher in the stack, as you go higher in leadership, conflict is part of the job. And I thought that was really interesting, and I think he said that he was uncomfortable conflict or something, but I really wanted to hear, give me more specifics. What does that mean and how do you deal with that kind of conflict? And so he gave a really great answer about there being necessary and unnecessary conflict and necessary conflict being what's caused by doing our jobs, differences in priorities and different departments you have to work through. And then the unnecessary conflict where that kind of conflict doesn't need to exist to get the job done. David, am I relaying this properly?

Emily Perry: That to me was a big, big revelation of like, okay, so if you can separate those and figure out which is the necessary conflict and which is the not, you can work through that. And if it is a conflict because of differing priorities in the job, if you have established trust first, then it makes it much easier to get through that. So I've really been thinking a lot this week since our conversation just about making sure to the relationships I have that already have trust, how to keep that trust going, how to build on that, how to make it stronger. So that's what I've been thinking about this week

David Seidl: And spoilers the next time we chat, my follow through will then be to ask, okay, tell me how you applied this. Did it make sense? Is it consistent or are you making progress with that? And then to continue poking at things that Emily talks about that are things that I might've seen or that would be good for her to think more about. And so my job is to pay a lot of attention and look for those pauses and look for the thoughtful moments and all of those elements that I can then pull more out of her with. That's not always how I would approach it. There are times, Sarah, when we've talked where my job was to say, what do you need from me today? And sometimes that was, I would really like it if you give me feedback on a thing or just listen or whatever across the range. But I think as people who are in a mentoring role and we play back and forth, I learn from everybody that I work with sometimes awkward to say we're mentor or mentee. A lot of time we are people who are learning from each other, but if you can flex to the place that the person you're meeting with needs you to be in, you can give them more than you might otherwise.

Sarah J. Buszka: Right. And something I really want to kind of double down on here is something I've learned very recently, and thanks to both of you actually, Emily and David and our Rising Voices podcast crew, shout out to them is kind of remembering that we can learn something from anyone. I think a lot of times a myth around mentorship is that it has to happen between folks who are typically older or more senior or more experienced, and then folks who are more junior and maybe not as experienced. And we kind of look at it through that singular lens. I like to say that we look at the world through a toilet paper holder, it's very myopic. And if you think about mentoring in that lens, it's not necessarily wrong, but you're missing out on a lot of things that you could learn if you're willing to broaden your view and realize that you can learn something from anyone and really embrace that.

Sarah J. Buszka: And really, I think in our last episode that we had and why I'm so thrilled to have y'all here again, is I've learned so much from all of you. And really I think the point of this episode in the show is to help folks understand that it doesn't have to look like the traditional way we think about mentoring. And if you're willing to open your mind and consider all people as someone you can learn from, I think you'd be really surprised what you find. And I think honestly, it's going to open your worldview and give you more opportunities and build more empathy and capacity. And frankly, I think we all need that to cope right now in this world. So that is my monologue for the day. But with that, thank you for indulging me. I kind of want to think about if we're willing to be a little bit more vulnerable here and share maybe something that we would like to be mentored on or supported on right now and demonstrate that for our audience, are you all down?

David Seidl: Absolutely.

Emily Perry: I’m in.

Sarah J. Buszka: So if y'all may, I'm going to kick things off and share something because I really do want to talk about something that I feel like we don't talk about very much. And it's the topic of layoffs. We work in higher education, we have a new federal administration. We have a lot of changes going on in the world, and of course here in the United States of America. And something that I've experienced very recently and personally is I was recently laid off from my job, so was my entire team, and my department was dissolved and does not exist anymore. It's been tough, it's been sad, it's been hard, and I feel like it's something we don't really talk about in this society. There's a lot of shame around it. And I don't feel ashamed. I wasn't laid off for a performance issue. I was laid off for budget cuts and so was my entire team.

Sarah J. Buszka: And it happens. It's happening all the time, and honestly, it's going to happen a lot more this year. And that's the reality and it's tough. But why I want to bring it up is because I, along with many others are going to be experiencing this right now, and it's really tough to go through. There's a lot of emotions. It's a roller coaster. I oscillate between being well and unwell sometimes on an hourly basis. But I really want to thank David here and you Emily too, because for our listeners, David and Emily have really been supporting me a lot through this transition. This has happened in just the past two weeks, and I sent David a message the day after it happened and I was in a really low spot and it was tough for me to write this message to him, but he replied and was there for me right away. And since then he's helped me edit my resume. I've completely blew up my old one and have a new one, and I love it. Now he's helped me with interview questions and thinking through how to kind of prepare myself through this process. And Emily kindly reached out to me to support me as well. And here we are. So I am wondering if you folks would be willing to even kind of peer and mentor me right now on the show with how to keep moving forward.

David Seidl: I'm going to throw in a couple of things that we've had in our conversations that I think folks might benefit from, particularly in the context of layoffs. And so one of the first things that we talked about was it is easy to feel like it is somehow your fault or you are to blame. You're in a low spot already, right? Life has changed and layoffs at that scale are not a personal thing. They impact you personally, but they are not a personal thing. And how do you get into not a good head space and okay head space around it. So some of our conversations were along that way, and then it was a turning that into productivity. And so Sarah was great, immediately sent over a cv and I talk about two types of resume reviews. One is a black pen review, which is I'm friendly and nice and I show you a couple things and I send it back and try to make you feel pretty good about it.

David Seidl: One is a red pen review where my goal is sort of unofficially to actually get at a real red pen if it sits on my desk. And my job is to have more red on your piece of paper than you have black from the printout. I said, I know where you're at mentally right now. Do you want a black pen review or a red pen review? She's being, Sarah says, I want a red pen review. I said, okay, if you know what you're signing up for. And she noted that she has completely revised her entire resume. And when you were under that kind of stress, that is a hard thing to do, but it's also an opportunity to step back and think about how you're presenting yourself. And Sarah, I think you learned two or three things along there. So I'm going to kind of prompt you to maybe share what that thought process of what that feeling was like and what you did, and then the ongoing feedback loop on that.

Sarah J. Buszka: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Thank you. And what I really took away from it is I can do hard things. It's a really tough space to be in mentally, especially since I have a very short runway. And at the same time, it was really exciting to kind of blow it all up and start over again. And a really good opportunity too with David giving such helpful and critical feedback. And those two are aligned. If you can't give feedback that's not helpful, don't do it. It really helped me realize that I was undervaluing myself and underselling myself too. And it helped me realize also that my focus has always really been guided by supporting others. I mean, that's what I've been doing with this show. That's what I did with my role chairing the Young Professionals Advisory Committee. That's what I've done my entire career and my entire life is pouring into others, supporting others, and seeing them succeed because it makes me feel like I'm succeeding.

Sarah J. Buszka: It's somewhat selfish, but seeing other people win makes me feel like I'm winning. But I realized I should be pouring more into myself, and I deserve to be doing that and having David look at my resume and kind of say like, damn, you've got some great stuff on here. And to have someone like David say that to me, I was like, oh, maybe I do. And then that kind of changed this thinking in my mind of like, oh, what else am I minimizing or not really giving myself the credit and the credence for? And it gave me a lot of confidence. I already had a job interview after being laid off in less than two weeks, and that means I updated all my materials in a very short amount of time, and it just gave me so much wind in my sails to move forward and to be excited about my next chapter, even though it's scary as hell and terrifying.

Sarah J. Buszka: I mean, that doesn't mean that stopped most days. I feel terrified and excited. But I think what it really helped me realize is the way you communicate and share who you are in a piece of paper matters as we all know. But there's a way to do that and give yourself credit and not let yourself feel too guilty about it. And that's what I'm still working on, is not feeling too guilty about it. But as we talked in our last episode, it's like that Midwestern modest affliction that both David and I share at least that we constantly battle. But he's really helped me realize that, okay, this is not the time to be modest. This is the time to own my truth and to celebrate it and to find folks who will help me celebrate it too.

Emily Perry: Wow, you guys are so cool. I, well, thank you. I have to say, Sarah, I think that was super brave, first of all, for you to give your documents to David and say, do the red pen review. David, I think that's amazing that you said, do you want a red pen or do you want a black pen? Wow, that's awesome.

Sarah J. Buszka: It was really helpful.

Emily Perry: I just think that's amazing. And David's right, speak your truth. And I think that's such great advice.

Sarah J. Buszka: Yeah, he told me, I want you to own it in my resume. And for folks listening, I encourage you to look at your materials, your resume right now, update it if you haven't. That's another thing I learned, have it updated. He encouraged me to really own my things because a lot of times I said, oh, I served or I helped. And he was like, well, didn't you just do this? I was like, well, yeah, I did it, but I helped with all these things. He's like, Sarah, you did that. You led this entire thing. He's like, you're the reason why this exists. And he's like, I've seen it. I know that was you. I want you to own it. And so I'm saying this to our audience too, and I want you to own it. And I'm saying it to you too as well. It's like, I want you to own it. I think it's easy for us to give that advice out, but sometimes it's hard for us to take. And so for all of us here who are going through whatever, own it, own your truth, embrace it. Try not to feel as guilty about it. I know it's hard. I know it's hard, but we can do hard things

David Seidl: Well, And the thing that cracks me up as we're doing this, Sarah says, can I see your cv? And I said, absolutely. It's going to be a little out of date. I don't need a new job right now. And I sent it over and she's looking at it, she's like, Oklahoma. And I said, the thing I don't like about it is it's a little cluttered. It could be prettier. And so as she's writing her own resume to get a job while she needs one, she's like, well, maybe I could get this back to you and it could be cleaner. I could do some editing on yours. I'm like, you don't need to do that right now. But she's so deeply built with that kind of service oriented approach. She's trying to help me while we're focused on this moment where she really needs to take care of herself. And I was like, okay, so cool.

David Seidl: In this moment in time for you to center yourself so instinctively as leaders, we would like if our team is laid off to make sure that all of our team members get jobs, that is really good. That is absolutely an instinct that a servant leader should have. Also, you have a need to have a job and it would be okay and is okay to use your network and the people that you know and to lean into that. And that's really okay. And then as you're doing that, you can also boost them. But it is such a reminder of understanding who we are and where our instinctive behaviors may not serve us well, especially in a stressful time like this.

David Seidl: As we were talking and joking about being Midwesterners, and there's this whole set of things that we joke about in that context. One of the things that I have been people close to me have called me out on is that I was raised in a way to maybe never be enough. So I have always wanted to do more for others and to provide more and to give more. And that's not a bad thing, but there are times where it would be really good and healthy for me to be satisfied. That's really hard. And so as we talk about the two sides to a relationship like this, having Sarah in this moment to have that conversation with, we were having some of that conversation that was benefiting me as I was saying, Hey, I'm kind of built like this and this is really helping me think about the ways that I interact with the world and the way I approach challenges that are in front of me. So this really is a give and take. And what I love about this is a lot of these relationships turn into long-term friendships. And there's that moment where you're like, okay, yeah, we've been doing some formal mentoring and now we're both Sarah and I think we skipped that phase. We did. Yeah. Our friend circles are almost the same on the Venn diagram. Here we go. And it's just been lovely having such a good friend and also somebody who I learned from on a consistent basis.

Sarah J. Buszka: Oh, thank you. I just love you all. I just want to give everybody a hug.

Emily Perry: I think that's what's really cool about mentorship though, is that it is reciprocal. And some people think that mentorship is one way, right? Somebody older and wiser tells you the things you need to know, and I just don't think that's true. As you can see right here, you guys have a very reciprocal mentorship relationship. And I think that's something that if you're looking for a mentor, that's something you should look for because the people who are willing to help you, it should enable you to want to help them as well. And if you can't, it might not be as satisfying as you'd hoped.

Sarah J. Buszka: Exactly. Totally agree. And

David Seidl: I'll contend older just means we typically know, hopefully that we know less.

Sarah J. Buszka: I was very humbled by that. When I finished grad school, I'm like, wow, I know a lot more about this thing.

David Seidl: There's this huge domain that I'm aware of, but I now know about that.

Sarah J. Buszka: That I now know how little I know about it still,

David Seidl: Which is what I was loving in my conversation with Emily in a space that I don't spend a lot of time in. And so as we were talking about procurement related things, my side of it is contracts come past me and I click yes, I'm understanding it.

Sarah J. Buszka: Emily's like, wait, wait, wait. Let me help you with that.

David Seidl: Lemme say, yeah. So as we were talking about the things that she's   professionally, and I was learning things that are going to be useful with my own procurement folks, with my IT acquisitions folks in my own role, because I'm sitting there taking my mental notes of, okay, that's a useful thing. I should pay attention. Because if she's saying that, that means it's going to be writ large for a bunch of other people too. And so that was really, every time you talk to somebody, you should be getting something out of that and thinking about it and getting smarter because of it.

Sarah J. Buszka: Totally. I reserve the right to get smarter. Oh my gosh, I love that. I can't take credit for that. One of my colleagues at Stanford, his name's Kurt, he is the CIO of the School of Engineering. He says that all the time, and I channel my inner Kurt Howerton when I say that. So this is a shout out to him. I just love that phrase because it kind of echoes the spirit of mentoring that we've been discussing is there's always something to learn. And keeping an open mind to that I think really helps you feel successful. So I'm kind of curious, switching gears maybe a little bit here, David or Emily, is there anything that you want some mentoring on right now?

David Seidl: I, there's so many things in motion right now at the scale of the world, whether it's politics, whether it is changes in institutional policies, the things that are in front of me next are, we are a Workday implementation and we are going to do Workday student. And that is going to have a much larger impact on the academic areas than it has previously because Workday moves a lot of the responsibility centers closer to the functional areas. And so I am spending more time learning from our VP for enrollment management student success. And so kind of seeking out that knowledge and expertise in a way that I would've value before but was not as necessary in my day-to-day life before. And so that's a place that I'm looking right now. That's not this episode easily solved thing, but that is where my head is right now, is we have a multimillion dollar thing that I have to get and I'm invested in it. And also I have less control over things that people think is an IT project than they normally would because it is so closely tied to the functionals,

Sarah J. Buszka: Right? That's just a small thing on your plate,

David Seidl: And Sarah, your thing, go build some bridges between silos and do that kind of thing. So we're going to be talking. I just need to figure out what my questions are.

Sarah J. Buszka: Well, maybe let me ask you this. What do you feel like from your lens right now, from what might be your biggest potential blind spot?

David Seidl: Yeah, seeing your blind spots, that's a hard one because the mirror, you almost need somebody outside to say, here's the thing you're not so good at,

Sarah J. Buszka: But you have a good intuition. You have a feeling of where they might be, at least in the cardinal direction.

David Seidl: I think it's going to be a split between the politics of the support model because we have to get that right and it's going to be shared, and we need to make sure that 20 years from now somebody's not going, oh man, that David Guy really messed this up. And everything's been hard since then. So that's a thing that we we're paying attention to. Make sure we all learn how to work together and govern well together. And there will be things that we miss. The academy is complex. There are colleges and deans and department chairs and all of those things. And I have a lot of faculty friends, but I don't necessarily have as close to the ground of a view in individual departments as I would like. And so I think my blind spots are going to be where a bunch of the administrative folks will just walk up to me and talk to me. I'm going to be emphasizing and trying to make sure I reduce those blind spots in the academy as much as I can. And that's why worry is making sure that folks have an opportunity and that I'm friendly and easy to approach. It's a worry.

David Seidl: I'm on the edge of campus on the east side of campus and the Western college, so Western the eastern side. And so I'm not in the main part of campus, and so I have to make a concerted effort to go across the street and be in spaces and be seen. But that is a thing.

Sarah J. Buszka: You're going to set up camp right in the middle. That's actually not a bad tactic. I'm sure you've considered it.

David Seidl: I go to quite a few university events to be present and to be accessible.

Sarah J. Buszka: And that's a good strategy, especially for what you're about to embark on too, which I think we all know many of us have had a personal experience where you can have the perfect plan, the perfect idea. You can see it on a piece of paper, the roadmap is clear and everything looks great, but then you factor in people

David Seidl: Underneath and people are the most complex technology we work.

Sarah J. Buszka: Right? Exactly. Exactly. So how do we navigate that, Emily? I'm sure you've had some experience with that.

Emily Perry: Well, actually, yeah, as David was talking, I'm trying to think of what could I use mentoring on right now? And the biggest project on my plate is starting a new way for people to purchase SaaS solutions without having to wait through the whole contracting review. And many people don't wait for the, they don't take it through contracting. They may not even recognize that there's a terms and conditions that you're agreeing to as you click through. Sorry to get in the weeds of my role, but so what I am planning is a program that can help make these easier. And my mentoring needs are going to be around change management because this isn't just a change for faculty and staff, it's a change for IT departments. It's a change for the contracting services group, the procurement group, accounts payable. And so I have to figure out all those different departments who the people are, the influencers down below, and then also where their chain goes up high so that I can make sure I have buy-in from whoever needs to be seen. And then the change management around the actual rollout. I've never done anything this big, but through EDUCAUSE, I think it was women in IT started posting about, Hey, there's a new community group called Change Management Community Group.

Emily Perry: Using your network like this, I'm going to be using the network right now, going to reach out to that group and listen in on their meetings and see how I can find somebody to help mentor me. Because if those are experts in change management, that might be a need for me in the future.

Sarah J. Buszka: What's so wild, Emily? I have the goosebumps. This is crazy. I just finished a project like that at Stanford. At Stanford, so we should talk.

Emily Perry: Yes, let's do it.

Sarah J. Buszka: I'm glad you're on the show. I mean, I am happy to give you my resources. My project was to streamline software evaluation across the enterprise, and one of the outputs was to actually write a streamlined single technology evaluation guide for software solutions. Oh my gosh. Okay. I have some policy recommendations I can give too, and some stories about how we implemented policy and frankly how we ended up rolling it back because of the change management challenge

Sarah J. Buszka: And then also some of the processes and workflows that I helped lead and set up as well. So I know we're getting to time, but I feel like this is teeing us up for another, a third episode maybe. But I will say just my laser answer is you're really honing in on the right things, the change management piece and getting buy-in. Again, you can have the most perfect workflows, but if the people aren't on board, it's probably not going to work. But there is kind of a middle ground too. So figuring out where that is, what people are willing to accept as part of the change and what they're not. Kind of to David's point earlier too, I think about what's necessary and unnecessary conflict is kind of similar here. It won't be perfect. There inevitably will be people who question it and might be upset or might not like it, and that's just going to happen, and you have to welcome that. Accepting that

Emily Perry: And welcoming that will be a challenge for me. I like to make people happy.

Sarah J. Buszka: Yeah, I do too. Trust me. That's me in a nutshell. Yes. But it's going to be like that. But I'm happy to chat with you and connect you with other resources too.

Emily Perry: We'll do it.

Sarah J. Buszka: I love this. Look at us supporting each other. Well, since we are kind of getting to the end of today's episode, I want to kind of run this out by both thanking you, Emily, and David, for mentoring and supporting me through this time and for your willingness and bravery and vulnerability of sharing what you shared on this show and indulging us in this kind of live episode of mentoring and showing that to our listeners. Is there anything that either of you would like to share as your key takeaway or lesson learned or something that you just want to leave our audience with? David, are you willing to start?

David Seidl: Absolutely. This is something that we used to tell every new chief information security officer in higher education as soon as we could talk to them. And it is, you are not alone and on your bad days, you are surrounded by a community where people want to help and people are willing to help you. You may have to reach out to let us know. We may not always see that you need help. We may not always see what you need, but if you reach out, even if we're not the right person, we will typically connect you with someone and then it is on you to follow through. But there is a wonderful, wonderful community who is living your experience or lived your experience, or at least cares about your experience. And all you have to do is just reach out and find that community and EDUCAUSE is that community.

Sarah J. Buszka: I agree. That's great. Thank you. Emily, are you willing to share a takeaway or a lesson learned?

Emily Perry: Yeah, sure. So my key takeaways for mentorship are that it's a journey. It's not something that you do once and it's done. It is continual. And you have to continue to be brave and put yourself out there in either networking events or connecting with people to make it happen. So stay brave and be patient. It is a journey.

Sarah J. Buszka: There you go. You've heard it here, folks. There you have it. Stay brave, be patient, reach out and I'll slide one in. You can learn something from anyone. That's what mentoring is all about. Thank you folks. Thank you. Thank you.