From CIO to President: David Lassner at the University of Hawaii

John O'Brien: Welcome to another Community Conversation here at EDUCAUSE. I'm thrilled today to be joined by David Lassner, who is the president of the University of Hawaii system, but also known as a former CIO and friend of the Ed cause community, a well-known leader in many fields. So I'm excited to have you here. David. Welcome.

David Lassner: Thanks. Thanks, John. I'm really grateful to be here and have this chance for the chat.

John O'Brien: And when I invited you, I did not know that you were retiring, that that had been announced. And since then I read a great article about your presidency and your plans 47 years at University of Hawaii,

David Lassner: 47 years. It's the only place I've had a grownup job,

John O'Brien: I think. Was there a picture of you in the seventies in the article? I can't remember. I think there was, yes.

David Lassner: Wonderful. Yeah, my PR people are very good at digging that stuff up on me.

John O'Brien: So 11 years is a pretty long stretch for a president, right,

David Lassner: Indeed. These days it's about, I think, pretty close to double the national average or survival rate as we call it sometimes.

John O'Brien: Yeah. Well, when I first became a college president, my mentor took me aside and said congratulations, and the first thing he said to me is, don't stay too long. He said, you'll show them all your tricks in the first six years and then it's time for you to move on. Now, mind you, I took him out for a drink when he retired 12 years into his presidency. So he didn't follow his own advice. And what he told me that he didn't take into consideration is that it can take you five years to get a team and then you want to enjoy it

David Lassner: First. Yeah. I mean, I think I agree with half of that advice, which is get out. We have a former vice president here who I'm going to paraphrase the title, but getting out while you're on

John O'Brien: Yep.

David Lassner: And I think knowing when you're done is really important for me. Interestingly, it's really, I'm just ready to retire. I've been at this a very long time and there are things I want to do that are not compatible with the lifestyle of being a president.

John O'Brien: And it's interesting when you get within that last decade, you start to notice people's exits and there's nothing better than a classy exit, like you say, when you're going strong and stepping off stage that way is a lovely thing. So everything we've just said about the survival rate and the endurance and how long you should be and when you, would your advice be the same for A CIO?

David Lassner: Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think CIOs also, CIOs can last longer I think for all kinds of reasons. But still, if you find that the time is you should know and you should have people around you who can tell you when it's time. I have more people around me wishing I were staying. I mean, there are definitely people who are glad I'm stepping down, no question. And I could make that list, but many more people are wishing me well. It's sort of sad for us. And happy for you, David. Enjoy.

John O'Brien: Well, and I read that you are going to have a little office in it. That's pretty cool.

David Lassner: So it's funny, when I took the job and we've had some difficult departures here, two of the three presidents before me, it was hard for the institution, for the individuals. And when I took the job, I didn't want to be the source of that kind of drama for the institution. So I actually never had a contract, and we'll talk a little about my path, I think, but I was never a tenured faculty member. So many presidents returned to the faculty. And since I had never been on the faculty, that wasn't an option. And when I was kind of negotiating with the board about my appointment as president, they said, well, what about afterward? Because they had just been through this. And I said, I just want to be president emeritus so I can dabble in some projects if I want to. And we have a new IT building that I was the CIO when we broke ground on it. But by the time we had the grand opening, I was president, so I never got to move into my baby. So I said, your quarter office president emeritus with an office in the IT building.

John O'Brien: Well, I love the idea of returning to faculty is certainly a well-worn pathway. I kind of like the idea of you going back and doing desktop support. Wouldn't that be a sum? I'm David, I'm here to help you with your,

David Lassner: What's funny is kind of in my first couple of years as president that my instinct when I was in a meeting and something wasn't working was to try to fix it and I had to hold back. People really don't want to see the president doing that.

John O'Brien: Yeah. Yep, yep. Well, so part of why you were on my radar about five minutes after I started at EDUCAUSE was also as somebody who sort of has this IT background and then became a president myself. It's a pretty small pool of people who have gone from a CIO position to a presidency. Do you feel like a unicorn?

David Lassner: Yeah. The only one I really knew of at the time was Michael Rabie at Indiana, who I knew we worked in some of the same circles. But other than that, I actually, I didn't know you at the time, John. I didn't know you until you resurfaced at actually. But yeah, so today I don't know any presidents who came up through this path, and especially because I was never a faculty member. It makes it even stranger.

John O'Brien: Well, when was that seed planted and did somebody encourage you along the way?

David Lassner: No, it was a complete unexpected path when, I mean, it's a longer story, but I came in as a contractor. I came over on a one year halftime contract from the University of Illinois. I was a graduate student working in the computer-based education research lab, which was the home of the Plato system for those who follow computers and teaching and learning. So my undergraduate and graduate student job was in essentially the Plato lab writing software to teach. This is in the seventies. And the University of Hawaii wanted to get started with Plato again in the seventies, and they needed somebody to come out and help 'em get started because it's a pretty unique system. So nobody cheaper than a graduate student. So I came in 1977 on a one year halftime contract for $750 a month to help the University of Hawaii get started with Plato.

David Lassner: And I basically never left. So from that entry level, IT staff, IT manager, IT director, figuring out in the era of separate academic administrative computing, telecom, all different, and putting those things together into what is now a modern IT organization. So those were all steps along my pathway eventually becoming vice president for it where I was very happy. I mean, honestly, I thought I had perhaps the best job in the world. I loved doing it. I loved the excitement and what we could do for it in higher education. And Hawaii I think is the best place on earth. So I couldn't have been happier really. My predecessor stepped down and I was one of the sitting vice presidents and they said, we're looking for somebody. The board chair called me up and said, we're looking for somebody to serve as interim president probably for a year while we do a search and we want somebody who isn't going to apply for the job.

David Lassner: And I literally said, I'm not going to apply for the job, and by the way, I'm my third choice if I were picking. And there were two other vice presidents I thought were really more qualified to do this. And they picked me anyway. And about, I guess it was six or seven months into the search, they said, we know you didn't apply for it and we were looking for somebody, but can we consider you? And at that point I said, okay. And I knew enough to know that if the board wants you, that's kind of half the battle. So they asked me if they could consider me, and it remained a competitive process. I ended up in a pool, they had two finalists and they ended up picking me. And that was about 11 years ago.

John O'Brien: The serendipity is a familiar dynamic for me. Having said that, one of the things I admire so much about people who I might be coaching or talking to about career is people who bring a real intentionality to it. I find myself wondering, had you pursued it actively, would it gone differently? I mean, was it your, I don't need this.

David Lassner: I don't mean this to sound pollyannish, but I mean I love this place and I love this university, and I really felt like if the board thought I was the best president for that point in time, then I wanted to do it knowing these are tough jobs and you don't always last and you can easily get chewed up and spit out. But I didn't need it. I wasn't seeking this, but it's a public university and it's public service at some level, and I'm not complaining about it. I mean, I'm well paid and all of that. But yeah,

John O'Brien: I think there's something magical about coming from the technology ranks, that tactical savvy and the joy of seeing a project from start to middle to finish that helps. Yeah,

David Lassner: I think so my longevity with the institution, so I guess that would've been about 36 years here. And what is interesting, and some of it may be the time I came into it, I came in doing this fangled idea that computers might be useful in teaching and learning. This was not common thinking in 1977. And we had a president at the time who was a local guy, actually World War ii, vet MIT trained engineer, a Japanese-American. And he said, I think this is going to be a big deal. And he was the one who asked a group of folks from to go check out systems like Plato. And there were others around the country at the time that resulted in creating this project that brought me here. And as a result, I was working with some of the most innovative people in the university and around the country, frankly, who were looking at this really interesting question.

David Lassner: And I think that curiosity that I had beginning with the use of computers and teaching and learning, I was there basically when PCs were invented, developed, and we were figuring it out. And I was young and curious enough that when the traditional computer center people were busy with mainframes and mini computers and text processing and things, and I said, Hey, these microcomputers are cool. We should be doing something in the computing center. And I had a boss who let me do it, A computing center director. Same thing happened with the internet. There was no such thing when some of us gray hairs started. And so kind of identifying opportunities and seizing them, high performance computing. So in leading technology through some of these really significant changes, I think I was engaged throughout the university. So we're a 10 campus system with a flagship research university.

David Lassner: We have campuses or education centers on every island. And in my first year here, I mean, if you can get this for work, I had to go to every island and I dragged these big 160 pound Plato terminals, connected them to phone lines and modems to get back all the way to the controlled data mainframe in Illinois, to demonstrate Plato and really the most advanced use of computers in teaching and learning. So you can imagine who I met, all these steps along the way, this is a microcomputer, this is the internet. These are the things that are going to be important over time. And that's what I think helped me when I finally ended up in this job that I had so many touch points on 10 campuses around the state and people who were interested in teaching and learning research, new information systems. We were one of the first universities to implement a PeopleSoft HR system, and we did it without consultants. It was legendary in the nineties to pull something like that off. So I understood the place, I think pretty well. That said, I certainly found gaps when I became president. Things I knew nothing about. And perhaps that's one thing I'd say if somebody aspires to be president, I pretty consciously didn't want to be president. I watched presidents. I thought I have a better life than they do.

David Lassner: I really, for example, so there were things that I, sitting in VP president cabinet meetings, I didn't really pay that much attention to fundraising. I didn't pay that much attention to construction. I didn't pay that much attention to real estate. I didn't pay that much attention to athletics. So these are all things I really had to figure out as a president that you don't have to really think about as a CIO.

John O'Brien: Well, the trajectory of coming from a technology background to become a president seems like it would be a great strategic advantage given the way that technology has impacted and shaped higher education. Yeah. Do you think as you look around at your colleague presidents around the country and around the world, that presidents are becoming more tech savvy? Or is that continuing to be sort of a lagging?

David Lassner: I mean, there's no question that they are more tech savvy than they were. Yeah.

John O'Brien: Whether it's enough is the question, I suppose, given.

David Lassner: Well, I think that's right. And how well do CIOs and the technical community do it explaining and conveying the importance to the presidents and probably the whole cabinet to understand. I can think of one moment that I recall when they got it, and this was, so I also had our flagship research university. I'm a combined system campus, CEO right now, and we had a flood about 20 years ago that cut across the campus, flooded the basement of the library and took out the power to most of campus. And so we're sitting at about, it was in the night and maybe six in the morning. I think it was a Saturday morning. We're in one of the buildings that had power, and this is before we had a new IT building, by the way. It's one of the reasons we have a new IT building. And we lost power to the computer center where pretty much everything was housed.

David Lassner: So we're sitting there and people are talking about, okay, we got to send out a mass email to the whole campus. And I looked at everybody go, well, you didn't identify the computer center as a priority for a generator, and we don't have any servers that can send out email to everybody. Then, okay, we got to put up a webpage. Well, you didn't identify the computing center as a priority. They were thinking about lab animals and things that are really important freezers with specimens. And the third time I said, we're not putting up any webpages with information. They said, okay, okay. The computer center's a priority. And we started ordering generators to repower the computing center. And I think that's one of the times when I watched the leadership of an entire campus get it.

John O'Brien: So when you became president, did it report to you?

David Lassner: Yes. So that was all. So I had on this pathway when I came into it, we had really four or so distinct IT units that reported to three different vice presidents along the way. We had traditional academic computing, traditional administrative computing. We had a telecom that did phones and we had a distance that did also ran a campus video network. And there was a sense that it, and again, this is something probably mostly of interest to people historic, unless you were around in the sort of late eighties into the nineties, this was pretty common. And an edu comm conference or a cause conference would be full of sessions about merging academic and administrative computing and then on merging them later who was going to win. And it symbolized by the difference between the two conferences prior to the merger that created edu. And I was first asked to lead strategic planning for it. So I led the first that process and it brought people together to say, not one should be in charge, but that we need one unified unit that, I mean, you had literally move into an office and you might have three different people show up to wire you to the academic network, the administrative network, and the coaxial cable TV network.

David Lassner: So that process led to combining creation then of our first it was called a director position as a CIO, then it got renamed to CIO. And then at one point when I was getting recruited away, I told a friendly president who didn't really want me to go away. I said, I would really like to be a vice president. And he made that happen the next time he was jiggery. And that did change the trajectory of the ways I could, I think, help and influence the institution around technology issues.

John O'Brien: Yeah, I'm trying to imagine whether having a president who was a CIO is a dream come true for the CIO who follows you or a total nightmare.

David Lassner: Yeah. We were talking before and you wondered if it was a problem for the CIO to know where the bodies were buried.

David Lassner: I'm going to say it another one. So first I'll say, I think in our case it's great. So I did hire my replacement. It was somebody I knew who's similarly committed to Hawaii and this institution and really loves the job. Garrett Yi's active in an organization. I thought I wasn't going to be able to let go. I was actually pretty worried about me, and I surprised myself with how easy that was. So we meet every week or two as I do with all of the vice presidents to review the issues and ideas in their portfolio. And it's mostly, I try to help him with problems. He ends every meeting, anything I can help you with. And I'm surprisingly out of his hair. He humors me when I have questions about things that I'm just curious about. And it's not so much that I'm trying to influence the direction, although certainly there are times when I worry and I share my opinions, but my leadership style is pretty much with my direct reports to tell them what I think. But I know that if I tell 'em exactly what to do, then I own every problem. And I do not want to overrule direct reports on most decisions unless I really want to own the outcome of,

David Lassner: So I think it works quite well. He is pretty happy. I think he enjoys having a boss who gets a kick out of what he's doing and isn't in his hair. And I like to think I left him a lot of buried treasures, which I do know where they are much more positive than body buried. Yeah. Yeah. That's why you're a president. He's happy to have me back in his building. It's his building, not my building. He's setting aside a little office for me to go to in January, which I'm looking forward. And I'll be cognizant of the fact that as an emeritus, I need to stay out of his hair. I also need to stay out of the president's hair, the next president. And the building is far enough away from this president's office building where I sit today and my projects will be mostly external facing. I'm still the PI on a few pretty big projects that I'm looking forward to engaging a little more in.

John O'Brien: Well, so somebody who's listening to this, and maybe this is planting a seed for this person, maybe I do want to be a president. What advice do you have for somebody from our world, from our community who maybe is starting to think about becoming a president?

David Lassner: I'd say you really want to, especially if you're trying to do it at your same institution, be really well-rounded and have a good understanding of the institution and all of the ways in which technology influences things that will give you an understanding of those things. So I think I have a pretty good understanding of teaching and learning. I think I have a pretty good understanding of research. I'm actually the top grossing PI here still. I was and still am. So I understand that leading administrative systems and leading a complex at a big institution, IT organizations are complicated. So I just knew a lot about how to run stuff that I think was well appreciated. We know how to start projects and finish projects and adjust them. And a lot of the things we have to do as a president are similar. There's very little that gets done with a simple decision and then everything is fine and presidents have to make sure stuff gets done too.

John O'Brien: As you're talking, I'm happily realizing that all the advice for A CIO who or CSO or someone else who's thinking of being president is also just really good advice for technology. I mean, I think that's right. What we used to and still talk about as the integrative CIO as A CIO, who understands the role of technology strategically and impacting the array of priorities and values. And so being able to do that may or may not get you a presidency, but it's going to make you a great technology leader.

David Lassner: If you're doing the job at an institution that you really care about its success. It will help you make the institution more successful too. And that's how I always looked at it, as well as I just have a lot of natural curiosity about stuff. If I don't know about it, most things I do, I'm interested in learning more about it.

John O'Brien: Well, throughout this entire conversation, your love and for Hawaii, for the university, for the system comes through your passion for what we, and those at the end of the day are what gets you the captain seat, right? I mean,

David Lassner: I think that's right. Yeah. And I think one good piece of advice I got was from the board chair who ended up selecting me and he was terming out as he was selecting, chairing the board that selected a new president. And he said, we hired you for who you are, David. Don't try to become a different person just because you're president. And I remind myself of that when people start trying to treat me like a president, whatever that means to them. And I think I'm the same person I was when I moved here. I've grown obviously since 1977 when I moved here, but I mostly grew up here. I have plenty of friends who have seen me in situations that are very unprecedented. So I'm not going to pretend that I'm somebody I'm not. And I got a new job. I didn't turn into a new person.

John O'Brien: There is something to that. I know that when I was applying for presidencies, that was always the magic was being presidential. What is that? Are you supposed to suddenly have more gravitas and suddenly in the end it's like you have to be authentically you. And I think that shines through. Yeah. So how has EDUCAUSE helped you along your journey to O Presidents?

David Lassner: So when I got started, as I mentioned earlier, it was Ed Ucom and cause I went to both after I got involved in creating our first IT organization. I'm going to say it this way, nothing. I mean there's a couple things going on for me. One is, as I shared, I was interested in all the ways it touches and clearly EDU cause is the premier organization for IT leaders and many, many parts of our IT community as well. Actually at the time it was the Cause Management Institute was one of the places I got started in basic management skills. And I went through, I think it was at the time the Management institute and then the Directors Institute. And then a couple years later I was invited onto the faculty. And that really helped shape me. Both the group of colleagues that I worked with on the faculty, like they say you learn something better when you have to teach it.

David Lassner: And we had a rotation of who taught what over the time. And then I was invited onto the IT Management Institute faculty, which is the group that does the similar institutes for Australia, New Zealand. I had the shortest plane ride of anybody getting there. So some of it is the substance of what I learned. I did conference presentations and things, and a lot of it is the network. And somewhere along the line I was elected to the EDU cause board by the membership and I did, I forget if it was a year or two as chair of the EDU cause board as well. So the professional network was really important to me and I'd say that helped me whenever we had a conversation on campus, I knew what was going on at other peer, whether it was peer systems because that's a unique thing in higher education or peer campuses, especially the R one group.

David Lassner: But I'd say it's also the other. I was very engaged professionally as A CIO. So I was very active in internet two. We were one of the first 65 institutions to join internet two for teaching and learning. The group I was closest to was actually the witchy at the time, it was called W Western Cooperative for Educational Telecommunications, still WCET. But it's got a different, the acronym has changed and it's got a global focus. It's not really western, but I was on the founding steering committee of that thing. And I just found that my experience in these professional organizations and the connections helping found the Kuali consortium and a bunch of other things really helped me understand how to solve problems with colleagues. And it's one of the things when I jumped to a presidency that unlike people who come up from the provost job, they know each other. So when I came in as a president, I knew almost no presidents. So I was left without a network. It was kind of startling to me and other presidents when I saw the traditional pathway and they kind of knew each other from coming up through the ranks in different ways. So something to keep an eye out for, I guess.

John O'Brien: Yeah. Well, we'll wrap up a conversation that I'd love to continue for another couple of hours, but I think you're an inspiration for our community prior to becoming a president. But we're all just so proud to see someone from our ranks take such an important leadership role. And it's a pleasure to have you here and in your next adventure in your IT office, we will be able to stay much I hope.

David Lassner: Thanks, John. It is been a lot of fun. Enjoy talking with you and aloha everybody.