The Next Generation CIO

Michael Cato: All right, welcome to the Integrative CIO Podcast. We are excited to have you here. My name is Michael Cato and today's conversation is a conversation with next generation CIOs. We're about and with next generation CIOs. And it's a term that I still, as you can tell, smile if you're watching the video and laugh about whenever I use it because it's so poorly defined we figured we could have a lot of fun with it. But I realized for myself it means these aren't the people that I learned from earlier in my career when I was coming up through the ranks and it's because many of those people are now preparing to retire. And I have to now own that I'm in the generation that I can see retirement on the horizon, but I'm not quite there yet. This is a conversation with those people that are in CIO roles much more recently, less than 10 years or so, I think was the framing we first came up with. And I'm super grateful that both of our guests were willing to accept an invitation to such a poorly defined conversation that I hope will still be really interesting on. And so we're excited to have with us today Ashley Baker, Associate VP for IT and CIO at Kenyon College. Welcome Ashley.

Ashleigh Baker: Excited to be here.

Michael Cato: Glad to have you, Ashley. And we also have with us Tara Hughes, Associate VP and CIO at Cal State Monterey Bay. Welcome Tara. Thanks for being here.

Tara Hughes: Thank you. So excited to be here.

Cynthia Golden: So, we are excited to have both of you with us today. And to kind of get us kicked off, one of the things that I think I know our listeners or viewers like to hear about is people's journeys, the journeys that take you to these roles. So I know that neither of you came up through IT in the way someone might expect. And to get us started, how about if you talk a little bit about your journey, your path to the CIO seat? So let's start with Tara.

Tara Hughes: You got me. I was like, maybe she'll go with Ashley first. No, happy to share. I have been working in higher ed IT for, it'll be 12 years in August. I was a stay-at-home mom for quite a number of years with three young babies that once they went into elementary school, I went back and got my bachelor's degree in online and evening classes. They went to my college graduation when they were in elementary school. And so right before I started working full-time, I really had no idea what I was going to do. I just knew that getting my bachelor's degree was important and valuable to me. I'm a first gen college student. I was raised by my grandparents. I really didn't have any kind of model other than just understanding this was going to be important in my life. When the opportunity came up to work in higher ed IT, it was just overseeing seven student assistants answering the campus telephone. That kind of spun into taking over the IT help desk. Again, it was my husband that has the technical background. And so maybe through a little bit of osmosis and observing and learning alongside of watching his career throughout my years even as I was just at home was helpful context, but there was a lot that I just did not know. And I think what I have learned moving from the help desk to overseeing shared services to overseeing a chatbot to becoming a deputy CIO, all of those leaps were not necessarily ones that I could have predicted. It was an openness and a willingness for an opportunity when it presented itself. And seeing my lack of technical experience and just experience in general, for a long time I saw it as a liability. I think the gift of hindsight has helped me understand that that actually was a superpower because I had no preference over how we did things. It was always what's best for the institution and for our people. And so now I can see that that actually was a really core strength that has continued to serve me well, but I think it was only through time and experience that I've been able to gain that perspective. And then the willingness to show up and say yes to those opportunities and eventually becoming a CIO. I think now I've been a CIO for five years and it feels like I just got started. So time flies when you're having fun, but that's just a little bit of an overview of some of the high points.

Cynthia Golden: Thank you for that. I think your comment about being ready when those opportunities present themselves and being willing to take them is a really important one because I know I've been in positions where an opportunity came up and it wasn't something I would've thought about in a million years. Was not the thing I really wanted to do, but I took it anyway. So Ashley, why don't you tell us about your path?

Ashleigh Baker: Sure. Very similarly, did not end up in IT in what you would call your traditional went to school for IT. Dreamed about being a CIO route. I actually dreamed about being on Broadway and was on track heading to Julliard. And after a car accident in high school and being out for so long, I didn't really have the coach at the time that helped get me through to, all right, you can still do this, you can push through. And as you guys might know, if you're a dancer, you can only do that for so long until your body kind of gives out on you. So I just completely switched directions. I went to get a bachelor's degree in a subject I loved, which was math. Mathematics had some computer science requirements, which as a very mature college student, I avoided until the last year mostly because my dad had done computer science and thought, oh, it doesn't seem interesting to me. But of course, when I took the classes, I really loved it. I enjoyed the patterns. I enjoyed somewhat of the control and programming. My focus was on programming and design. It was a lot like choreography in some ways now looking back, the similarities between a dance background and IT background. After graduating undergrad with a math degree and a very last minute minor in computer science, I got a job as a developer. And I did my stint as a developer. I really liked the coding. I didn't really like the back office cube feel where I didn't get to talk to the end users and how they were going to use what I was building. And a temporary position opened up a Kenyon and a professor sent it to me, "Hey, I think you'd be good for this. " And it was for database programming, which at the time I was all in sea, did nothing with database programming. I thought, well, just take a chance. I don't think the developing world is for me. Let's try this. And I came here to Kenyon almost 18 years ago as a temporary programmer for a year and I loved it. I loved the job. I got to work with the people that were going to use the solutions I was working on. If I had a question, I could just walk across the street and ask, "Hey, what do you want to see?" And I just loved how much I was helping people. I directly got to see the impact that what I was doing had on them and what they could do better had on the students. About a year after the temp role, after several shifts in management, the full-time role opened up as a systems analyst and they asked me to stay on. So I was in that role for about 10 years and I worked all over the campus. I worked for the advancement office. I worked for student affairs, residential life and health and counseling specifically. I worked for the registrar in different projects. I led a bunch of major system implementations, a lot of data integrations. And in some ways that led me to be more curious about the campus and how it all worked together. You're not solely looking at one piece of the data. Now you're seeing how the data moves across campus and how it serves the students as they're incoming all the way through being a student and their success all the way through to becoming a hopeful donor. And I thought, "Man, that's really interesting." And then just before COVID, a director role opened up and four of us were moved into a director role in a matrix management model, which if you've ever worked in a matrix management model has pros and cons. And the pros were that it really helped us navigate COVID in a way that I don't think we would've been able to beforehand. And so being a good team player, a good choreographer, we were all able to manage our entire department shifting the college online like much of our institutions had to do. And it was really neat to have my first director's role focus on all this change that the campus needed so quickly. I had a second director role afterwards that I moved into after the matrix management model shifted outside of COVID. And I took over directing the administrative systems and the reporting and the integrations, which was fantastic because I got to see the entire picture from start to finish and kind of direct how that was going and in some ways choreograph how a student functioned from the beginning of their career all the way through. And a few years after that, I think I might've been in that role for, I don't know, maybe 10 months, our AVP moved on to a different institution and we didn't fill that. And then after a couple conversations with leadership, I thought, "Hey, we really need to fill this role. I'm noticing that people on our team are feeling overwhelmed by what's going on. " I was just really concerned with my friends leaving the campus because there's so much work going on and they chose to fill the role with me, which was amazing. That was about three years ago. And I focused mostly on people and building staff and building back in the boundaries of our staff members of, okay, COVID is over, what they're asking us to do twenty four seven is not what we need to be doing now. It was really neat to shift from organizing or choreographing systems and data to focusing on the people and what our team needs to move forward. And like what Tara said earlier, what was best for the people in the institution, I completely shifted focus. And then our previous CIO retired and they recommended me for the job and I was struck and surprised and very happy to be able to continue this work in that role. So I would've never guessed to be in IT, much less leadership, but I've been really grateful for the opportunities and the kind of strange sideways crooked way that I got to where I am.

Cynthia Golden: Well, that's another interesting story. And what you said about working in all the different domains of the institution really resonated with me. I think that serves the CIO well when you've been exposed to the administrative and the educational technology and all the different enterprise systems.

Ashleigh Baker: Yeah, I would agree with, and sticking with the superhero superpower that was mentioned earlier, that was probably what shaped my institutional view is really having that understanding of the structure. It's not your traditional structure. We weren't expecting it to work the same way. We just saw how it worked and wanted it to work better from... And he's a strategic partner of higher education and not a utility provider. And if you can really take a different view on the people and what you serve, it ended up serving me pretty well in this area.

Michael Cato: That's interesting, particularly as someone who has an unusual path myself, that it's always really resonates with me that it has become an asset in many ways that I just didn't anticipate at all at the beginning. And I'm hearing that in both of your descriptions. I just want to explicitly ask, does that resonate with you as well that it's become the fact that you did not come in and a traditional path has itself become an asset? Ashley, let's start with you.

Ashleigh Baker: Sure. I absolutely think it's an asset. I think at first I've only been in the CIO role for a year, if that. I think at first I was nervous. You deal with what people talk about, that imposter syndrome, "Man, I don't have the networking background that I need to do this. " And in reality, it's more about the things that we've learned along the way. The kind of unusual path that you mentioned, Michael, has shown us such a different viewpoint on how the organization can work and how the people work. And I really rely on the culture and the structure of my team that they know what they're doing. I don't need to know how to fix the networking outage. I just need to know how to help communicate that to the people that need to know what's going on or to help remove barriers from the people that need to fix the problem. And I think that's still taking some time, but I do think that the roundabout and zigzag way is definitely an asset.

Michael Cato: Tarah, what do you think?

Tara Hughes: I agree. Yeah, I mean I agree. I think that it is so true that first of all, that I don't know that there's a best path or a right path. I think whatever path takes you to that role is the path that was good for you because it led you to that role for a reason. I think though in the stories that we've both shared, I think that it has been an asset and I think the timing of that is not a coincidence. I think that there is a hunger and an appetite for a different perspective and kind of approach to IT leadership that is asking for IT leaders to see beyond just the technical components of the areas that they're leading. And it's asking for them to understand the humanity of the organization, of the campus community, how people show up from different angles to problems and the language that we use. And so being able to cast a very wide net and go back to that in a treasure trove of skillsets that you've accumulated along the way. I remember I just recently watched a video by Hank Green and he was talking about how no effort is wasted, that as you kind of go through life, you have almost this junk drawer of skillsets and that you might not know when a particular skill will come in handy until it suddenly does. And so I think that similarly, having an unusual arc of your trajectory, junk drawer almost sounds condescending. It's not meant that way, but that you're accumulating things that you're not quite sure how or where they're going to be useful, but you just know that the process that you're going through will somehow serve you well in a situation down the line. And so being able to learn from that experience or whatever it is that you're developing will not come back void. And I do think that not being encumbered by an opinion about technology because of all of those other perspectives that you gain working in those different domains I do think has been a real asset to the kind of leadership that seems to be asked for and really desired at this point.

Cynthia Golden: I think that's an important point. And I was just going to say that I think that one of the things when one looks back and kind of reflects on the role that you are both in right now, you realize how many skills are transferable from one domain to the other to the other. Something we talk about with students a lot.

Michael Cato: Yeah, that's a really powerful point, Cynthia. And it's interesting, Tara, that part of what you're describing, you're both describing, but maybe invite you both to be... If you were asked the question, what does it take to lead well in the role now? How do you answer that admittedly really broad question? What are the things that you're finding most important five years in Tara, starting with you?

Tara Hughes: That's a really interesting question because I would say that I don't know that I would describe an identity crisis so to speak, but what I would say is that I've been reflecting very differently now that I'm five years in. I think what Ashley mentioned about the imposter syndrome and really asking whether do I really belong in this role or was this just a cosmic coincidence that I didn't really deserve? That has shifted a bit over time. But what I've realized is there's been some identity that I've baked into that, that now that I've grown, I've been asking myself, well, who am I in this role if I'm not encumbered by that doubt? I think for me, the qualities that seem to continue to resonate is a ability to hold paradox, holding two truths that are intention, and how do you navigate understanding that there is not always going to be an easy conclusion to those two truths? And as a leader, how do I guide people through that? Because that's messier. And I think being able to be a systems thinker, seeing both the long view of the institution without losing sight of those immediate needs, again, those fear feel almost paradoxical. And so being able to hold those both. And then I think the ability to accept ambiguity and create some kind of structure or clarity for folks as responsibly as you can without coming to surface level conclusions just to make everyone feel better. I think there's a lot of complexity and nuance that is very challenging to wrestle with from the day-to-day. And I think it requires a lot of thoughtfulness and care and reflection. And that is a very different kind of work than I think that I had about the role from the outside looking in. My opinion obviously has changed a lot now that I've kind of sat in this role for a while.

Michael Cato: What about you, Ashley? How would you answer that question?

Ashleigh Baker: It's a really great way that you answered that, Tara, plus one to everything that you said. I think I might add to that too. I'm still in that first year where there's transition. So I'm looking forward to the five-year reflection like, wow, you made it. In this first year for me, if you're looking at what I expected versus what I'm seeing is a little different. I'm not managing projects or technology. I'm actually managing change more than anything else. For our institution in this first year, we've had divisional restructure, we've lost positions, a lot of constant and fluid movement and change that affects my team, the people on this campus, the people and how they work. I would say for me, I think I was really hoping to spend the time on tech strategy and operational efficiency and help the people that I've worked with for so long be their best selves and do their best work and lead their teams well and coach their teams. But I'm more focused on change management and governance and policy changing and aligning what we do with what the institution's doing and helping align the institution's strategic plan to where the world is going. I think for me, that is not anything what I was expecting and that's where I'm at now. And I think I'm looking forward to that five-year marker where I can look back and say, am I still experiencing that? Am I still managing change more than anything else? Or have we shifted gears back to operational efficiency? So we'll have to do a follow-up, I guess.

Michael Cato: You got it. Well, I'm just smiling as you made that point about managing change because all these years in for myself, I suspect Tara, if we ask you the same question, managing change I think has increasingly become such a big part of the job that there are periods that that feels like all you're doing because the changes are showing up in so many different places in so many different roles.

Tara Hughes: Yeah, I agree. And I think it's so hard because it's not like I was a CIO in 2010 where from where I stand, that feels like a really stable time. Maybe CIOs of that day would've had a different perspective on that. But I think especially now, you're still dealing with post - COVID realities. A lot of things that were not necessarily addressed or felt like they came to a conclusion that people could feel good about it just rolled into the next thing. And then you're looking at the question around the value of higher education and drops in enrollment and really trying to operate in a more lean and efficient way that has demanded change across the organization. And so Ashley, same boat in a lot of ways of whether it's budget reductions and staffing changes and really trying to manage people's expectations of change and what that means and that there's this kind of hope that people are holding for we're going to get back to where we were at some point. We're going to get to 2019 and it's all going to be okay. And I think that the harsher reality and opportunity is that things are going to continue to change and we have the opportunity to show up with either optimism around what that means or fear. But I do think it's a choice and it's one that we have to continue to intentionally foster and cultivate both within ourselves and our teams.

Cynthia Golden: You have both just touched on I think one of the things we wanted to talk about a little bit more, which was people and leading your teams and the people side of being a CIO. And where does that factor into this for you besides the managing change, which we just talked about? But Ashley, you want to talk about people a little bit?

Ashleigh Baker: Sure. I would say people are the core of how everything gets done. I mean, not just in IT but for higher education in the world. But having been so focused on people for the last three or four years and just watching how they work, how they operate, figuring out what they need, figuring out what they need to show up and show up well. Like Tara said, what are the barriers in their way? Do they have the natural ability to coach their team? Do they need coached to be able to coach their teams? Are they a bottleneck for themselves and for the team? Because everyone asks them everything. How can I help move that? All of those questions I feel like are still kind of rolling in my head fresh because we're changing so much or there's new technology coming in and there's people leaving and retiring and we're supporting new things. And I'm not going to mention the two letters that make our lives chang constantly. And it's changing people and how they work. Because they're the core, I've changed a little bit how our leadership team does one-on-ones with people where we're asking them the questions like, how are you doing outside of work? How's your work-life balance? Are you able to spend time with your kids this summer? Are you taking time off? How do you feel? Do you feel you have a backup in the main areas that you need to back up? We're asking those questions first now instead of operationally how projects are going there, project meetings and they'll always be there. But I think we're really trying to focus on the people because it's the people that are going to make us successful, not the technology. I have the most money in the world, which we don't. I could have the most money in the world and buy the best technology, but at the end of the day, it's the people that do the transformation. They're either the ones using it or they're the ones supporting it. And if we don't really focus in on those people, I think that's really what transforms it at the end of the day. And people are whole people. They're coming to work. I don't know if it's a culture thing. I don't know if it's just the day and age or the post - COVID. Everything is coming with them to work and giving them the space to be themselves, be the mom, be the dad, be the person taking care of young kids or aging parents while they're here and functioning while it's a lot and they're balancing a lot. I feel like if you can be real with them and let them be real back, you can be authentic and honest and kind, they will give back to the institution and the team just as much as you are allowing them to be themselves. And it's a culture shift, but I feel like our team has done such a really good job of preserving that even through very difficult times. And when we have interviews for our team, when someone asks the question, the inevitable question, "What do you like about being here?" The first thing our team says is just the people because there's things that we do in our day-to-day jobs that we don't like. There's things that are great and fun, but there are things that we don't like to do. And we're still here because the people, we still come to work because our team goes to lunch every day together at the cafeteria and talks with students and faculty and professors and other staff members, and it's because of the people. And I think that's what we need to really protect as everything is shifting and changing in IT. So I'm very passionate about our team and I think that's the most important.

Cynthia Golden: I can tell. Tara.

Tara Hughes: Well, definitely co-sign with everything that was just said. So maybe for being slightly different, one of the things that I have been learning maybe more intimately in the last couple years is caring about all of the people. And so I feel like as a CIO, it's very easy to focus in on my team and it's easy to care about them because those are the folks that I might understand a little bit better or I engage with a lot more. And I feel like as my role has matured and elevated over time, that I also have a responsibility to a different set of people, whether it's the campus leadership and developing a different kind of understanding and empathy for the complexity that they manage and And how do I also then bring that perspective back to my people and help them see leadership with different eyes and vice versa? I'm a conduit and a representative to all of the groups. And so how do I help them see each other with that understanding of humanity and fullness that makes us who we are? Because I think again, I used to, and I still do, I have people that are superheroes to me and I admire and look up to them so much. And I forget sometimes that they're humans who may have very relatable struggles. And I think that's probably been one of the most surprising things by stepping into the CIO role. The empathy that I've gained for my previous CIOs, seeing the way that they had to make decisions and how, again, the perspective that I had in the role that I had then and now understanding maybe some of the weight of what they were carrying that they couldn't communicate or it just has given me a richer understanding of people at every level of the organization and how to support and encourage them and create space for them to want to be a partner with me and IT is again, it's very easy to want to stay in my comfort zone of the folks in IT and being able to get out of that comfort zone and find the spaces of seeing those individuals as full people as well. And how do I bring these all together? It's just very different and very enriching. I think I'm a better person for it, but it is more complicated and so still learning.

Cynthia Golden: I think that's great advice though for newer CIOs, people who are just coming into the job doing that, making those efforts I think is really important.

Michael Cato: I definitely agree. And it's interesting, one of the places we were hoping to go in the conversation was to ask you both to reflect on what might be some expectations you had of the role that have surprised me now that you have it, that have difference between expectation and reality. You both mentioned some of that already. And I thought maybe one of the things we could do, I was listening to a podcast episode yesterday with Brene Brown, Adam Grant, and Simon Sinek, three authors who I really respect, but they were in conversation with each other. And in passing, they made a comment that has stuck with me that Brene joked that none of us would've had a business in the type of work we do in the '80s and '90s because most big companies did not value the kind of people skills that are what we teach.

Michael Cato: And I just thought it was a profound statement to make in the fact that all three of them agreed and it helped me better grasp a little bit of the distinction that I went through when I first started working in higher ed, early 2000s where we were going through that inflection. I had learned from leaders who didn't really focus on people, but I found a couple who did and it really helped me understand I saw myself in those that did. Are there any other expectations versus reality pieces that you would offer for our audience that might be aspiring to the position? And Tara, I'll start with you.

Tara Hughes: So, it's so funny you mentioned that podcast because I was literally listening to that exact episode this morning. So that's really funny. And I was struck by that statement as well. So one thing that I just want to comment on what you said is that I've had the benefit of leaders like yourself to watch and learn from. So there's been a much larger representation of people who have represented those values that I've been able to connect with that I didn't have to fully blaze that trail. And man, that makes such a difference. So kudos to you and everyone who have kind of blazed those trails because that is hard work and it's made my path probably much easier.

Michael Cato: Very kind of you.

Tara Hughes: I think I really thought, and I don't know why I thought this, two things. One is I thought it would be longer before I entered the CIO role. By the time I realized that was something I wanted to pursue, I just thought, well, this is normally how long it takes people and so that's just going to be kind of the norm that I should expect. So I was surprised that I just got there a lot faster. And then the other thing that I naively though was that if that was the path, that by the time I got there, I would feel ready for it and that I would feel like I had everything that I needed to feel confident in that role. And instead what I realized, and this has been true at every opportunity in my career, is that if I'm doing it right, I'm going to enter that next opportunity a little bit unsure. And that means that I'm growing and pushing myself in the right ways. And so learning to let go of that expectation that I don't have to have it all figured out, that me entering the role of CIO versus a seasoned CIO who's retiring, that's a wealth of experience and lessons learned that is not fair to compare myself to. And they wouldn't be who they are without that time to bake, so to speak. And so you got to start somewhere and then allowing myself the time to learn and gain that experience. I don't have to have all the answers right away, but I really thought that I would have more figured out by the time I got into that role. And a little bit of that imposter syndrome crept in and certainly asked the question of whether or not something had gone wrong in order for the stars to align in that way.

Michael Cato: Really appreciate that, Tara. Thank you. Ashley?

Ashleigh Baker: I would definitely plus one everything that you said and just the amount of knowledge that people who have done this before us or are still doing it now that we look up to and we ask questions, "Hey, is it okay to ask this is what we're feeling, this is what's happening, this is what we're seeing operationally, this is how it's affecting people, " has been great to be able to have those conversations now because I do imagine that would've been a lot harder a decade ago to have those or maybe even it felt to those CIOs then it was admitting defeat to say I'm having a problem or a struggle or something in an area. And I do agree the people who blazed the path to get leaders who are people focused before us have just been amazing because I feel like anytime now I send people to leadership training or IT specific leadership training, there's always a class or a focus on people. And that's important. They didn't teach you that in a computer science degree. You don't have people helping 101 or being kind or how important it is to be relational with people down sideways up over across the institution and campus partners. No one teaches you that. And I think now it's such a focus on that first before the tech. And I appreciate that. I think one other thing I want to add is, and I'm not sure if this is the old guard way of thinking or not because I haven't experienced it, but the level of responsibility and decision-making that was initially expected at the CIO role versus enabling your IT leaders, your directors, associate directors, managers, people leaders to either weigh in or make the decision themselves. And I don't need to sign off on every single thing that happens or everything we buy. I mean, if they're huge contracts, of course you have to sign the line, but that doesn't mean I have to be the one making the decisions or the pitches for everything that we should be doing to support the work that we do here for the students. And I'm not sure where that shift was. I don't know if that's also an inflection point, Michael, that you've seen, but instead of everything coming through the CIO or the head of IT, I might be the conduit for communication to other areas on campus or, "Hey, I'll bring a team member with me. Here's something that we think we need to do in the academic technology space. Please hear out their idea. What do you think? " I'm almost pulling together the right people in the rooms for the conversations and allowing my team to have those markers and making decisions themselves. I don't know if that's normal or different, but I really like that I've been able to allow my team to make those choices, to be independent thinkers and independent leaders without needing the CIO. Am I air quoting? I forgot this podcast. The CIO sign-off. So I would add that. I don't know if that's different, but it feels different. I know it feels different to my team. And I don't know if that's everywhere or just Kenyon, but something I've noticed.

Michael Cato: Yeah, it's different. I'll just validate that back at you. The central command and control hub and spoke models were not only common. I mean, this was the pinnacle of business leadership. Jack Welch at GE, the stuff that Brene Brown was talking about in that podcast episode. It was all about power and control and authority. Absolutely. And you were very, very careful about what you delegated, if anything.

Cynthia Golden: But when you empower people to be able to make those decisions, you're happier, they're happier, and usually you do a better job. You end up with a better result. So one of the things that has been really important to me in my career is having a community, being able to have the kind of conversations we're having, being able to call somebody up and get some advice. And so I think that one of the things that Michael and I were wondering is how do you find your communities? How do you find them? How do they serve you? Ashley, you want to start?

Ashleigh Baker: Sure. Being a small liberal arts college, there aren't a lot of people to talk to at this level, I would say, across internally at the institution. And you don't want to burden your people with all the things all the time, even though they've been friends of mine for 18 years. We've kind of grown through all this change together. So for me, I found my community in, I did the moral leadership program. I've done EDUCAUSE. I'm a part of the consortia liberal arts colleges, and there's a lot of people that I've just worked with over the years and being able to call one of them up and say, "Hey, here's what I'm working through. What's your experience?" And they'd either share their experience or even just sit and listen. They sometimes don't offer advice even though I'm asking for it. And it's just really nice to be able to talk that out because sometimes if it's a particular decision, I guess, I get there myself or with some reflection from the active listener on the other end, they say, "Hey, I think you solved your own problem and I think you missed it. Rewind five minutes to what you said." And I don't know that I would be here today without those leadership programs, those people being able to talk through decisions and choices and changes. I would also say that I really enjoy Kenyon's ombudsperson. I mean, they've been great. I didn't know that was a resource that people had and it's just been lovely to talk with her. So I guess I do have an internal resource, but just having those communities of people and now with the vast amount of tech leader, people leader podcasts that are out there and people that are paying atention to it, not only in leadership, like the Brene Brown, you were talking about I heard her talk in person once and it just was amazing. There are many people that are talking about the relational value of leadership and there's many people that are applying that to tech. And I think having the podcast, having EDUCAUSE, having places like CLAC and having people to talk to that can actively listen and you make that relationship has been I think the people that have helped this be mostly successful. Tara.

Tara Hughes: Yes, I agree. And all the groups that you mentioned or many of them more in EDUCAUSE and for the Cal State University, we have the CIO council. I think what's been so interesting is every step along the way in my career, there has been a community that I have looked for to create, recognizing that I knew that I needed perspective outside of myself. And again, I think this goes back to the benefit of being somewhat ignorant of how things were supposed to work or how people were supposed to do things. I didn't know that. I just knew this is how I operate and this is what I need to be a functional human being because I am so relational. And so whether it was the EDUCAUSE Management Institute, one of the faculty there has been a mentor to me since 2018. And for probably eight or nine years we met every two weeks. I mean, just the commitment to foster that relationship and pour into my growth and development was meaningful. And that was not necessarily, I didn't go into the Management Institute thinking I'm going to get a lifelong mentor out of this. I think showing up in each of those spaces and I sometimes get overwhelmed in big groups and crowds. I really like personal connection and so I'm not very good at small talk. I'm trying to get better at it. But trying to find at least one person within that group that I can make a connection with has typically led to that person being an ongoing connection that I have been able to have over time. And Michael was a guest speaker at Leading Change Institute. And again, maybe just the audacity of going up and asking, "Hey, can we talk sometime? I might need your advice." I've done that on a number of occasions. And again, I can tend to be kind of shy, but I think my desire to be better overrides that. And so I go outside of my comfort zone to ask for help because there's just no other way that I can do what I do if I don't do that. And so I have been so blessed and fortunate to find tremendous people I feel like at any conference or group that I have the fortune to participate in. And some of that certainly is intentionality. And some of that too, I think is the quality of people that are in these spaces genuinely. And so it's hard to make a bad pick, honestly, pick someone and go talk to them. You might be surprised at what a long-lasting friendship and support system that creates for you.

Cynthia Golden: Good advice. Excellent advice. Michael, I think we have time for one more question.

Michael Cato: Sounds good then. We'll work in our joy question. As we think about these are really challenging roles in all the ways we talked about where are the two of you finding joy? And we wrote this in your work, but I mean this broadly. So if it's family, your children, a hobby, where are you finding joy and how are you working to protect that? Ashley, we'll start with you.

Ashleigh Baker: This is a great question. In the work, I love higher education and being able to work in it is amazing and being able to be seen as a leader and a part of it is amazing. I find joy in continuously learning and being curious, and I think working in higher education continually feeds that. You get to learn new things. I really enjoy working with people and helping them either do their job better because of technology and then they're happy at the end of whatever our team has done. I like that I can continue to do that. I now like in this role that I can help other people find their joy in what they do and move them in the right seat on the bus as you normally hear. Or for me, it's part in the role in the ballet, wherever they need to be, helping hear what they enjoy, seeing the work that they do and shift them around or grow and change their leadership path in IT or even other areas of campus if they want to stay in higher ed. I find joy in doing that work. I've also recently found joy in helping reshape how Kenyon is moving strategically and being a part of those conversations has been really fun and enjoyable and enriching. Outside the work role, I love hanging out with my family. I've got three kids, my husband, a dog and some cats. And I have no idea what lives out in the woods behind our house, but I enjoy spending time with them and they're growing up so fast and they're all involved in different sports and the arts and music. And even though running around and being the mom bus is sometimes very stressful on top of the 500 emails that are happening and your team needs you. I know that time is short to be able to do that and I'm trying to find joy in the mom busing. But I do like spending time with my family and protecting the boundaries, as you said, is really tough when you have a job that you're in leadership and you feel responsible for your people. I don't want to mother my team by any stretch of the imagination. I already have my own family that I'm responsible for, but there's a lot there. And to mentally put up some boundaries at the end of the day to be okay with not checking your email or responding to somebody right away, it doesn't matter if it's somebody on your team or your boss, you have to have some sort of boundaries or making sure that there's time at home where I can spend just focused and present time with my family. And that means the laptop has stayed in the car, the phone is turned upside down. Whatever that is, building in that space has been trickier this last year with this new role. I think mostly because I didn't know what to expect and what was needed of me. And I definitely don't want to fail myself or for my team and I don't want to fail at home either as a mom or as a wife. So I think I'm still trying to work on the boundary piece because if I can help pay attention to that, whether I succeed or work towards succeeding, I hope other members of my team will do the same thing. They will be able to see that it's okay to make boundaries between work, to do things that you enjoy, to make sure that you're spending time in the places that give you joy, whether that is building and vibe coding on the weekends or if it's going on a hike or seeing a concert or spending time with your friends. So I guess that's how I would answer the joy both in and outside of work question.

Michael Cato: Really appreciate that, Ashley. Tara?

Tara Hughes: So I totally agree on both the work and the personal front. There's joy to be found in both domains. On the work side, the joy that I've been finding in learning resilience and the lessons that it teaches me in every other area of my life is not this is so happy, but it's this deep joy of I'm doing something that continues to give me meaning and continues to give back to me in ways that I don't always expect. And I'm super grateful to do work that is able to foster that because that's not true for everyone. I also am just incredibly passionate about creating opportunity for students because although sometimes it's more six degrees of Kevin Bacon, it is still something that I get to contribute to in both direct and indirect ways. And again, being able to participate in something that is greater than myself is, I just can't imagine spending my time doing something less than that. So I get a lot of joy from that. On the personal front, my husband and kids are just my world. I love spending time with them. I think I'm in a really different phase of parenting. My girls are college, post-college. And so the way in which our relationship has evolved and just seeing them become these young adults who are funny and smart and thoughtful and getting to experience life with them. I remember when they were young, I loved going to Disneyland with them because it was like seeing something I had seen a lot of times with new eyes. And I find that I'm rediscovering life in certain ways by seeing it through their eyes. And there is a joy and a wonder and curiosity that comes with that. So that's been just such a gift. And maybe coupled with that is the freedom to be able to travel a little bit more now that they're adults. They're actually all in South Korea right now, and so I've had a chance to go visit them a few times. But I think the gift of being able to experience a different culture, a different way of living life has been so enriching to me and my perspective of what I have to be grateful for, ways to think about things differently. It's just been such a tremendous joy and gift to be able to continue to discover life and all of its many wonders.

Cynthia Golden: Well, this has been a terrific conversation. Thank you both for joining us. I'm so glad we had this opportunity. And I will say thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in to the Integrative CIO. As always, if you have suggestions for speakers or topics that you'd like us to get on the program, you can send an email to [email protected]. Thanks for listening everybody.

Michael Cato: Thank you all.