Navigating Career Transitions

Cynthia Golden: Hi everyone. Welcome to the Integrative CIO Podcast. I'm Cynthia Golden and I'm here with my co-host and colleague, Michael Cato, and we are very happy to have you join us for what we are sure will be an interesting discussion today. Today we're talking about career transitions in higher ed IT and specifically, how do you know when it's time to make a move and how do you make that decision even if it's not obvious? So joining us today are two higher ed leaders. First, I'd like to introduce Sharon Pitt. Sharon is Vice President for Information Technology and CIO at Virginia Tech. Hi, Sharon. How you doing?

Sharon Pitt: Doing okay. Happy to be here. Honored to be here. Thanks.

Cynthia Golden: Well, we're thrilled to have you. And also let me introduce Sarah Buska. Sarah is Executive Director of the Applied AI Lab at Waukesha County Technical College in Wisconsin. And Sarah also hosts or co-hosts one of the Educause podcasts, The Rising Voices, I think. Is that it? So welcome, Sarah. Spot

Sarah Buszka: On. Thank you, Cynthia. I'm glad to be here.

Cynthia Golden: And we're very glad to have both of you here with us today.

Michael Cato: I'm happy to ad my welcome to you both as well. And maybe as we get the starting, I'll call this a gut check for you both. Is it harder to decide to leave a role or to stay? And Sharon, how about I start with you?

Sharon Pitt: Yes. More to come.

Sarah Buszka: Okay. We have to unpack that, Sharon.

Sharon Pitt: Yes, we will.

Cynthia Golden: I have a feeling we will.

Michael Cato: And Sarah, what about you? What do you think of that gun check question?

Sarah Buszka: Yes, thank you. Well, yes, that's my answer. I think for me personally, it's been harder to decide to stay rather than to leave.

Michael Cato: Makes a lot of sense.

Cynthia Golden: Yeah. So if we jump into some of your experiences, if you think back to a time when you seriously considered leaving a role and maybe you did, not casually, but really wrestling with the decision, what was going on for you? What were you thinking about? Sarah, why don't we start with you?

Sarah Buszka: Yes, thanks. So I think for me, one of the hardest times where I had to wrestle with that decision was when I was working full-time and doing grad school full-time. And I see nods. Anyone who's gone through that, shout out to everyone listening who has gone through that. I'm seeing nods here. Folks know it's tough. You get to a point where you feel burned out, you feel exhausted, you don't quite know if you can keep going and then you question all of your decisions in life and wonder why the heck am I going to grad school and working full-time, fill in the blanks with all the other things I'm doing. And so my answer is really coming from the perspective of we are so much more than who we are just at work. We have so many different lives, so many different skills, so many different things that we do in our communities and people who are with.

Sarah Buszka: And for me, it's always been like, how do I balance all of those? And knowing when I'm overtaxed in a certain area and realizing what the opportunity cost of that is and then making the decision to stay in a role when it might not be what I would have done had the circumstances been different and then having to live with that for me has been really difficult. And what I've learned has only been able to work if there's a defined timeline for how long I'm willing to accept that situation for.

Cynthia Golden: Good point. Sharon, what's your version of that moment?

Sharon Pitt: Yeah, I'll say I've certainly struggled with those kinds of moments over the course of a many decade career at this point, but the one I'll talk about is the most recent transition from Brown to Virginia Tech. I was not at Brown very long. It was a short tenure and I really struggled around making a decision to leave. I felt enormous responsibility to that team. I was feeling guilt about even considering going. I had an incredible team that I was working with. There was wonderful things that were happening there. At the same time, the VP of IT role at Virginia Tech was my dream job. I started my career here. It's my alma mater. I was looking at coming back to serve. I was looking at coming back to the state that I was born in and relationships long-term with family and friends of proximity at a time when an aging parent is getting older.

Sharon Pitt: That was a real struggle, that sense of responsibility to Brown and then this incredible opportunity. And I literally did not apply for a long time because that sense of responsibility was so strong. But then fortunately my support community came in and said, "Come on, Sharon, this is your dream job. What are you thinking? This is not going to come around again. You need to figure out what you're going to do and apply." And I did. And I'll say ironically, the thing that made me feel less guilt about taking this job and making this change was a speaker who'd come to Brown University, Ruth Simmons, who I think we all know. And she was giving advice to students at Brown about what should you do when you're thinking about leadership opportunities. And she said something to the effect of, "Choose usefulness over titles." And I very much felt like Virginia Tech probably needed me more than Brown did.

Sharon Pitt: Virginia Tech's motto is uprosum or that I may serve and that's something that's been a part of me since I attended this institution since I first started. And that was sort of the thing that gave me the psychological freedom to leave and take on the role.

Cynthia Golden: So it really sounds like the moments you are both describing, while they might not always kind of look dramatic from the outside, it just seems like internally there's a lot of significant stuff going on. Absolutely.

Sharon Pitt: Yeah.

Sarah Buszka: Absolutely.

Michael Cato: And it's interesting, Sharon, because the other thing I'm hearing in your description is you had these signals that were drawing you to the role in this particular case. Would you agree with that description that there were these indications that this is a kind of role that would be right for you next?

Sharon Pitt: Yes, absolutely. And I think it really had to do with that strong culture of the institution that I had left many, many, many years before and wanting to be back in that culture again and be a part of that land grant outreach service that had been so much of a part of my career for so long.

Michael Cato: I can imagine that there's another version of this that is also realizing it's time to, not necessarily something's drawing you to, but realizing it's time to leave because where you are, there are indications it's time to leave from that. And I'm curious, Sarah, maybe either way, if there are experiences you could speak from of what were some of those early signals, either drawing you to something or saying, "You know what? It's probably time to be thinking about whether it's time to move on from where I am."

Sarah Buszka: Absolutely. Yeah. There's always that push and the pull. And just like Sharon, I've experienced many of those over my career. I think for me, if you think about even the laws of physics, an object at rest is meant to stay at rest. So when we're at institutions, for me, one of my first jobs working in higher education was at my alma mater, similar to you, Sharon, working at the University of Wisconsin-Madison where I had been a student, worked as a student in the help desk, worked my way all the way up to director of critical infrastructure and cyber infrastructure. I had been there for a long time. And it's tough to leave a place that gave me my first shot, that gave me my first opportunity. I met some incredible folks in that institution and organization. My first boss, I'm going to give him a shout-out, Brandon Berner.

Sarah Buszka: We all know him in Esucaus. I see smiles. He was incredible and gave me that first opportunity. And I felt a lot of allegiance obviously to the institution, but also for someone who was willing to take a chance on me in the way that he did and put me on his leadership team at such a young age. And so I felt like I had a lot that I owed the institution and sometimes that just got in the way of my own best interests, thinking about what do I want long-term? And I suffer from the Midwest modesty guilt as I'm seeing in more smiles, we recognize that, right? And since that was me very early in my career, I hadn't quite conquered that or figured out how to navigate that. And I felt guilty for even considering, "Well, what if? What are those other interests of mine?

Sarah Buszka: What else could I be really good at?" And so that was pretty tough. I felt like, okay, there's a couple things that are bubbling up for me. I really wanted to get more in the infrastructure side. I was highly curious, wanted to understand how all the things worked, but I didn't want to leave the position that was created for me by an amazing leader and an incredible team in a wonderful culture and organization. And that was really tough. I felt like I was going through a bad breakup.

Sarah Buszka: But I think what I really learned from that is if someone really cares for you, if you have a good leader who really supports growth in their organization, they're going to see that as a positive, a good thing because I was considering other roles even within the University of Wisconsin-Madison and I got the feedback from him of like, "Hey, you're staying internally. You're not leaving. You're still within this institution. That's a win. And even if you don't want to stay in here, that's fine. Focus on what you want to do because you're going to be the best person if you're following your passions and your desires and picking positions that you can be useful in, to your point, Sharon." And so that really helped me kind of set that guilt aside and move forward. But I'm not going to lie, it was still very hard.

Sarah Buszka: Even when I left UW Madison, I went through a pretty significant stage of grief. I would say about like six solid months of grief of just missing it and feeling this void for my institution, my alma mater, my people, my state, Wisconsin's my home state, all those types of things. So I'm feeling a lot of resonance with what Sharon has said too, because I left to go work on the Pacific Coast at Stanford, which is a very different culture than what I was used to. And so I just missed that. I miss my people a lot, but there were also great things to look forward to where I went. So it was certainly a balance, but I really felt that allegiance to my home state and where I got my start. So it's tough.

Michael Cato: Yeah. I really appreciate that. And it's interesting. Something I'm hearing from you both is that strong sense of responsibility and connection to the role that you're in, in some cases because of who brought you in or the work that you're doing, your strong connection. And those are all the things I imagine that make you really good at what you do because you are so committed to it. And those also then can sometimes be the challenging thing to work through to consider doing something else or moving on to another place. Sarah, I'm also struck by the, it's all internal, but getting a chance to talk with your mentor, you might discover that they actually are supportive. So that sense of responsibility to them or guilt to them can be at least a little bit assuaged by them giving you feedback. No, actually I would celebrate you moving on to the next role.

Michael Cato: I never expected you would be here and I think you're really ready for it. And it's intrigued me that sometimes we spend so much time in our heads getting a chance to say it aloud, you might discover that there are other ways to think about it, right? It sounds like it may come up for you.

Sarah Buszka: Yeah. Well, the easiest lies to believe are the ones we tell ourselves.

Sharon Pitt: And you know, Michael, I find it difficult always to leave the team, but you don't really leave the team. I mean, it's not like you cannot be in touch with these people, right? There's a certain amount of distance that you have to provide for the new leader who's coming in, but you can still be a mentor, you can still have those connections. I think sometimes when we think that we're going, that we're just cutting things off and leaving things behind, but it doesn't have to be that way at all.

Cynthia Golden: I'm still connected to my people from my first job at Carnegie Mellon like eons ago. I think you're right, Sharon. So here's a little twist on what we're talking about and knowing when it's time to go. How do you tell the difference between this job is just really hard right now and this role's no longer right for me for whatever reasons. I've been in that position I know. Sharon?

Sharon Pitt: Well, I think our jobs are always hard at times sometimes more than others. I don't think we necessarily leave because the job is hard. I think it has more to do with relatives of that. What does hard mean? And I think for me at times is have I stopped learning or are my contributions, I'm going to call it diminishing marginal contributions. When you first come into a role, you understand what it is that you can do, you have really big impact and then over time that can become less and less and less and you don't necessarily feel like you're the person who can continue to help that organization grow. I mean, I think that really varies from institution to institution as to what it is that you can accomplish or not accomplish. Certainly as you end up leading these organizations, your impact can be bigger and bigger, but I don't think you're ever in that place where you don't necessarily have that diminishing contribution at some point.

Sharon Pitt: And sometimes if you want to stay, you find ways that you're provisioning contributions in different ways to the broader community, to your region or what have you, but at some point you might consider going because you think there's a way for you to have that broad impact at another place.

Cynthia Golden: Sarah, what are your thoughts on that question?

Sarah Buszka: Well, Sharon couldn't have said it better. So I will echo everything she said and I'll add another nugget that I use to help me make these decisions. And I've shared with others and some of my mentees as well is I think it's important to understand when you are watering rocks and when you are watering grass. I mean, there are signals that come up and being aware of that is really important because if you're not aware of it, you're going to just be dumping water on rocks and nothing's ever going to happen. And if you're expecting something to happen but you're expecting rocks to suddenly sprout, it's a losing game and everyone loses in that scenario. You yourself, of course, your teams, your organizations, et cetera, right? It's not good for everyone. And so how do you know when those things are happening? I think for me personally, it's been when institutional inertia hits, Sharon said it really well when your value and what you're working on has or seemingly has diminishing impact or value when you're not being called to take on that big project or when you're not being given opportunities to lead something or be visible in the community or your work is being taken and someone is using it and putting their own name on it coming from experience.

Sarah Buszka: When those things start happening, listen. And it's not a sign to take things personally either. It's assigned to check the pulse of the organization and to understand what's happening and then to ask yourself, am I willing to accept what's happening in this organization or not? Because the only thing you can control is yourself. As much as you would like to stop that person from taking your work and putting their name on it, removing yours and sending it to your leadership, you can't jump into their body and stop them from doing that. And to expect somebody else to stop that and control that behavior is also a losing game and it's just only going to lead to frustration at the end of the day. And for me, I've had to get very clear on my energy, treating it like it's expensive and not giving it away to everybody, right?

Sarah Buszka: Being intentional about where I can give it to because there's only so many places it can go. I've been talking about laws of physics right now. So keeping the theme going, I guess. And I think I've just had to get very honest with myself about that and look for those signs and that's really helped make decisions, right? When it comes to that point for me at least, I've gone through a lot of these iterations enough that when I arrive at the decision, it's firm, it's final, and I'm very clear on what my next steps are and I'm not hemming and hawing about it as much as I have in the past.

Cynthia Golden: I'll add one more thing to what you both said. I always ask myself every year, am I learning? Am I contributing and am I having fun and am I enjoying what I'm doing? And if the answer was to no to any one of those, then it might be time to take a look at your environment and where things were headed. Anyway,

Michael Cato: I really appreciate that as well, Cynthia. So it's interesting, Sharon, one of the things I find myself mulling over is as we talk about the signals we're paying attention to, have you found that the ones that are most important to you or most helpful to you to be gauging to using as a gauge, have those changed as you moved into executive roles? Are you looking at different things from those types of seats than you were before?

Sharon Pitt: Yeah, absolutely. I'll say early career, it's a different time. I mean, you want to have impact, but your definition of what impact is in many ways is about what job you have and what breadth of responsibility that you have. And then I'll say, once you become a CIO, you're like, "Okay, well, now I have all this breadth of responsibility. I have all this opportunity." What now? And so your definition of impact in many ways changes. I think in all ways you want to have impact as a leader, you want to serve, you want to make things better wherever it is that you go, but how you do that I think really changes as you move through your career. And I know that for me, impact becomes as much about how it is that I'm serving and mentoring my team, how it is that I'm working with my colleagues across the institution as much as it is about breadth of responsibility, that's not really a factor for me anymore.

Sharon Pitt: And so I think in some ways you have to rethink every time you come into a new role. And frankly, if you're in a role for a while, rethink what it means for you to have impact and understand Cynthia, to your point, are you having fun?

Sharon Pitt: What does that mean? How

Michael Cato: Are you

Sharon Pitt: Having that impact? Are you enjoying your team? Are you serving the way you want to serve? Are you getting what you need out of the institution? Is the institution getting what it needs out of you? These are always, I think, analysis points that you're going through since we're talking about late career, one of those items is when do I go and then I don't do anything else or what does significantly changing how your contribute looks like because the next gig might not be a CIO gig. It might not. Yeah. So what does that really mean? What does that really look like? How do you want to have impact? And I don't know that we want to have impact or we want to serve ever changes. It's just what does that look like from year to year?

Michael Cato: Yeah, I really appreciate that, Sharon. Sarah, you have a perspective. It's funny, we were just noting early in career. So we're going to turn to you next on this same question from your perspective and I think I told you my favorite part about asking these types of questions, particularly with colleagues who I know are well seasoned in their own right, have had major accomplishments in their own right. I always cringe when I'm the one who gets to ask, "Early in your career, how do you think about this? But that's my turn this time." There you go. But from your perspective, how do you think about these? What would you add to that conversation about the signals you're paying attention to and have they changed over time for you?

Sarah Buszka: Yeah, absolutely. I think ironically, I was having this conversation earlier today with a longtime friend and mentor, the singular Kathy Bates, I know Cynthia knows her very well.

Sarah Buszka: We were talking about how early in our careers we really felt like we had to prove ourselves immediately. I was working on a team when I was at Wisconsin with pretty much all men. At one point, I was leading a team of 22 individuals and I was the only woman leading that entire team. And so I think the signals that I was really looking for were how do I have that immediate impact and value to gain respect? Because I learned that if I just walked into a room, respect wouldn't be given to me the way it would be given to someone who didn't look like me. And I felt like I had to work six times harder, especially since my background wasn't in technology. I was on the pre-med track folks. I was trying to become a medical doctor. I was studying Russian language and literature, psychology, neurobiology.

Sarah Buszka: Technology was not my background. So I felt like I was even at more of a disadvantage. So I really started valuing certifications and learning, continuous learning has been a theme of today's conversation and trying to have these kind of external pieces of information or validation of my skills and my talent because I felt like I had to do that. So my signal was, how many times can I get these certifications? What is everybody getting? What should I be getting? But very quickly, I learned that the rules of that game were not written for me at all. It didn't matter how many certifications I got, I was still never going to be enough. And then I realized like, screw it. What else can I do? How can I lean into just the strengths that I know I have that I know this organization needs that they're severely lacking and how do I show value in that way where I'm not being constantly evaluated against a rule book that wasn't written for me anyway.

Sarah Buszka: So then my signal started turning into more cultural aspects and working with great leaders and choosing folks to surround myself with who understood that value, who understood that if you have 22 people and they all have the same skills, it's going to be really hard to evolve and grow in a world that's constantly changing, right? Change is the thing we can count on. We're going to need some balance if we're going to be successful. So finding leaders and mentors and sponsors who saw the world that way and were willing to invest in me became my next goal. And then after that, thinking about institutional impact, how can I go somewhere where just some really cool things are happening, where I'm surrounded by just brilliant, smart people and there's opportunities to get involved in some of the coolest technology and environment and research that I could possibly be around.

Sarah Buszka: How do I just stuff my brain with all of this knowledge and soak it all up like a sponge? And that's really what led me to Stanford. And now in my career, I think I'm really looking for more signals around regional impact, finding really great partners no matter the sector, if it's higher ed, wonderful. I found many of those nonprofit, private and how do I get the arrows, at least in my state, pointing in the same direction to make a regional impact? And that's really what's driving me right now and working with the people who see things that way, who also have the same values has just been so rewarding and really fun too, right? That's been the best part is working with really amazing people who inspire me, who I respect, who bring others along and do great work together. That's just extremely energizing.

Michael Cato: I really appreciate all of that, Sarah. It's interesting because one thing I'm hearing from both of you that I just want to validate if I'm correct is that the environment and recognizing your talent and giving you the space to execute against that talent to make impact, Sharon in the way you were describing earlier, Sarah, even credentials or not, to recognize that the abilities that you had and to give you the space to act on those things, those were also aspects at play here. So it wasn't just internal, it was also paying attention to how much does the organization give you the space to recognize those things and to let you act on those. Am I right on that?

Sharon Pitt: Perfect way of saying it, yes.

Sarah Buszka: Perfect way of saying it, Michael. Of course you're right.

Michael Cato: I just wanted to make sure that I said that part aloud if I was correct. Thank you.

Sarah Buszka: You are.

Cynthia Golden: So you've both talked about these factors that carry weight for you when you're thinking about making changes and when you're making these decisions. And I guess one thing that I'm just kind of curious about is, is there any change that you've made or that you talked yourself into that looking back you think you might've done differently or that you maybe you shouldn't have done?

Sarah Buszka: Oh, I don't know if we have enough time. Go ahead, Sharon. I

Sharon Pitt: Was going to say I've probably tried to because I'm really bad at understanding myself, which is I tell people this from time to time, there's so many opportunities, there's so many squirrels, the chase, there's so many shiny things. In that mix of what might be an opportunity, you can get dragged into things that you don't necessarily or you shouldn't necessarily be doing, let's put it that way. And I'll say, thank goodness for a community of people who are your mentors that can help you through those kinds of processes for members of your family who have veto power over things like, "No, we're not going to Montana because I don't do grizzly bears." And you're like, "Oh right, I don't do grizzly bears either." And it's just so valuable to have that and I think it's really, really difficult early in your career when you're presented with all these shiny opportunities and it's really hard to dig through to the authenticity of that opportunity to think, "Oh, am I making a right decision or am I not making a right decision?" So perhaps I've talked myself into something that's temporary.

Sharon Pitt: I guess I'm fortunate that I don't think that's ever happened in a full-time career role, but it's only because there are people who care about me and that I ask who help me to not What makes such mistakes?

Cynthia Golden: Sarah, thoughts on that?

Sarah Buszka: Yes, thanks. I mean, Sharon is spot on. Every time she's saying something, I'm nodding so vigorously because I resonate with what she's saying so much too, because for me as well, I've been very fortunate to intentionally cultivate a great network of mentors and friends and supporters, but also with my family and my husband and having those folks who I can go to and get those sanity checks. But I think maybe earlier in my career, I felt maybe sometimes rudderless and I think maybe I don't know if I want to call it necessarily an imposter syndrome, but maybe it really was that. But I think that if I had something that I decided to do that didn't serve me, I think it was maybe choosing to listen to that voice for any number of minutes I think was way too long to listen to that voice.

Sarah Buszka: And I think being just really honest with myself and recognizing that that voice will come out, especially earlier in my career and recognizing that that's when you can be more vulnerable. That's when you haven't necessarily figured out who you are or found your footing or built that group of folks who can rally around you and silence that voice. So I think for me, very similar to Sharon, it's finding those right people who can really be that voice of reason for you when you really need it.

Cynthia Golden: I can attest to what both of you are saying. I think having that community, that professional community of people who are very supportive and caring has been incredibly valuable. And for me, much of that was built through the educause community.

Sharon Pitt: 100%.

Cynthia Golden: Yep.

Sarah Buszka: 100%.

Michael Cato: For those who can't see the video, we're all agreeing and nodding and emphatically. Yeah. So it's interesting. We all work in higher education. This is environments that are known to be slow moving or political or both. And one of the places I get, we've already been having this conversation about creating impact and paying attention to how much space we get to create impact. I'm just curious if either of you have ever had the experience of realizing you stayed too long, that you were in a place and in retrospect, you know what? I probably gave that more time than I should have. And if so, I'm not asking you for the details, but if you reflect on it, what made it hard to leave? And Sarah, I'll start with you first. Yeah.

Sarah Buszka: So one really comes to mind, and this is picking up what I mentioned earlier in our episode is I think one of the hardest challenges for me was deciding to stay in a role that I didn't necessarily want to stay in, but needed to for family reasons. And that was really tough because it was one of those roles where I was no longer learning at all, completely bored. And that really is hard for me because I love learning. I work in higher education. That's been a theme of today's conversation. I'm constantly chomping at the bit to do more, to do hard things. I'm very ambitious and I love just reserving the right to get smarter as one of my former colleagues used to say, and I steal that line from him all the time. Shout out to Kurt Howerton at Stanford actually for that. But I think that was tough for me because I knew it was the right decision for my family, but it wasn't the right decision for me personally and professionally and frankly, just from a growth and a learning perspective.

Sarah Buszka: And that was very hard to sit with. And looking back on it, I didn't handle that well. It was very unnerving for me and I felt very frustrated, anxious, angry even, feeling like, "Gosh, I could do so much more, but I need to accept where I'm at." And I had a lot of trouble sitting with that decision, especially for any certain period of time. I learned a lot from that. I've learned a lot from myself of I didn't have to frame it in such a dichotomous way. There were other options that I could have considered and frankly probably should have, but didn't. And I allowed myself to use, I would say the excuse of, "Well, this is how it is right now. It's busy, fill in the blank, this and this and this are happening. Can't do anything about it. " And you always have more agency I think than people realize, especially if you're in an organization where folks are making you feel like you have less agency.

Sarah Buszka: I think always remember that you do and that was something that I think I lost sight of. But now looking back on it, I can see it so clearly, right? Hindsight, 2020 and I don't regret anything. It was the right decision for my family at the time.

Sarah Buszka: I think even better things have worked out because of it too. And that's something I really believe as well is like sometimes things just don't work out so better things can. And for me in this case right now today, that absolutely is true for me and my family, which is amazing. So I think just keeping the sights that there's light at the end of the tunnel and being really honest with yourself as soon as you can is the key.

Michael Cato: Yeah, Sarah, I really appreciate your candor on that. And I can relate to so many aspects of it. There's a framework I was introduced to a few years ago that I've taught in so much of the mentoring that I've done in the last five years called Creating Odyssey Plans. Long story, they're kind of five-year plans, but the big advantage is we do professional and personal as their own rows because your personal life is always a factor. And so trying to give people the space to more intentionally and explicitly acknowledge, because my son is 10, he's going to be in this grade this year. That's not the year to be switching things so that if I can acknowledge that, then perhaps I can put some of my energies in other places so that it's not just I'm frustrated because I can't act on this one particular piece.

Michael Cato: And that would've been so helpful to me much earlier in my career. So I've become a big fan of introducing other people onto that model because of the experience that I've had. Sharon, what about you? In reflection, have you had that experience of realizing you may have stayed too long in an experience? And if so, what made you made it hard to leave?

Sharon Pitt: Yeah, I'll have to say I don't know that I feel like I've really experienced that. I tend to be a little antsy, but I think I've always approached these things from that breadth of decision making. It's always been a family decision for us around what it is that we do next. And to your point, whether I was doing this intentionally or unintentionally, understanding that there was agency to put my efforts in other areas when I was in North Carolina at NC State, I was involved in UNC system work. Educause has always provided opportunities to volunteer or be engaged in other kinds of places internet too provides options to be engaged as well. So there are ways to have impact that is beyond the institution at which you work so that you can both meet that total human need as well as making sure that you're learning and progressing in some way that doesn't necessarily have to happen explicitly from the definition of your job at your institution.

Sharon Pitt: So I guess I've been fortunate that understanding whether I was doing it or not, that's what I was doing. But I do, Sarah, so appreciate what it is that you said that we really have to think about ourselves as an entire human being struggling with many things, whether that's our children or care for our parents or whatever it happens to be. We deal with so many contexts

Michael Cato: That

Sharon Pitt: The on path that you may be envisioning for yourself is not necessarily the path that your leadership role is going to take and it's okay. And I want to lean into what you said about being honest with yourself and that really takes some time and some reflection and perhaps some support from people in the field and family and friends to help you understand that these things are going to be okay. And to your point, as long as you're still learning, it's okay and you'll take those learnings and you'll apply them to whatever the next thing is that you then do have the opportunity to take on because the time is right.

Cynthia Golden: So we're getting close to the end of our time, but we have a few really quick questions that we wanted to ask you and get your insight on. And the first one, and these are practical kinds of things. And the first one is, what's one question that everyone should ask before accepting a role and maybe one that people don't ask, or it could be one people don't ask, but what's it important to ask before you take a new job?

Sharon Pitt: Well, I'll say, do you really want it? No, I'm serious. Yeah, because there are times

Sharon Pitt: When you're a person that people recognize as having talent and they push you into things that they think you should be doing and that's not necessarily what you should be doing. I think it's really crucial. And this being honest with yourself piece is also about is the thing that is being offered to me something that I really want to take and that's both a decision around really understanding who you are and what you want to do and also kind of looking really hard at the opportunity and understanding to Michael's earlier point, are you going to be able to have impact? And sometimes that impact is not in that role that you've just been offered and those are really hard decisions to make. And by all rights, you should be making that decision well before you're offered the role, but it's something to really think about.

Sharon Pitt: Are you being pushed into it or is it what you really want?

Cynthia Golden: Good question. Sarah, do you agree?

Sarah Buszka: Of course, absolutely. I think Sharon's hitting it just right on the nose. I think we've probably all experienced maybe ourselves or working with others, someone who just very clearly isn't in resonance with the role that they're in for whatever reason. And when it's been ourselves or someone else, it just hurts everyone around them, including themselves and it's tough. So knowing yourself is key. I think one question that I'll add is based on advice I got very early in my career too, which is you're going to be spending a lot of time with these folks in these organizations, maybe even more time with these folks than your own families. Do you like them?

Sarah Buszka: Do you like these people? Are they good for you? Are they additive? Are they challenging you? Are they supporting you? Are you learning something? Or is it at least a neutral situation? If it's not one of those, strongly reconsider it because that's going to really- It's going to really impact your mental health long term, right? And is it worth that? What's the opportunity cost of me working with folks who I just don't like for whatever reason? Any reason is valid, you're allowed to feel that way, but if you're going to work with folks you just don't like, that's going to show up in your work and it's going to cause challenges. It's going to prevent you from having impact all those types of things. So ask if you even like the people you're working with or even the person who is hiring you, right? You should like your manager or your supervisor.

Michael Cato: And another speed question. What's a low risk way you think someone can explore a transition ideally before making a leap? Sarah, I'll start with you this time.

Sarah Buszka: I'll give a shout out to the singular Kathy Bates again because she, I think, has really pioneered mentorship for us in higher education, truly the work that she has done, how she's connected folks, the Vantage Leadership Lounge and so many things that she's done. I think finding those mentors is an incredible way.

Michael Cato: Really appreciate that, Sharon.

Sharon Pitt: I'll say read the job description but do your own research. And that includes calling people who have any kind of connection to this role and find out as much as you can about what the real scoop is.

Cynthia Golden: So the last question for both of you, if someone who's listening to or watching this podcast is on the fence right now about making a change, what's one thing that they can do this week? Well, it's this week to get clarity. Sharon.

Sharon Pitt: I think that it's important to understand where you are. Are you getting institutional support? So are you getting advocacy? Does the institutional process help you out? The resources question is a bit of a challenging one, particularly right now when there's so many challenges associated with that, but are the needs being heard? And even if there isn't something available right now, is there commitment to try to figure out how it is that's done, or at least an understanding of what you're going through in terms of you'd like to be able to be doing a thing, but you can't do that thing. And then lastly, are your principles in alignment with the principles of the institution or vice versa? Are you comfortable being there? It's sort of an extension of your, do you like the people that you work with? Do you like the institution that you're at?

Sharon Pitt: And is it doing things that you believe in? So are you reaching that percentage level where it makes sense for you to stay because you see enough alignment?

Cynthia Golden: Sarah,

Sarah Buszka: I'll build on that because everything Sharon said, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, absolutely. That's doing your homework. And then I think the next step is finding a safe person in your network. It could even be a family member or a friend. They don't necessarily have to be in higher education, but someone to talk this out with in a safe space where you can really put all of the pieces on the board and talk more freely about some of the political things that might be going on, talking more specifically about the resource challenges or if there's leadership disagreements. I mean, having someone to help you workshop some of those situations so that you can better determine, do I feel like there's a way through or am I watering rocks? I think that's really helpful because we can really get into our own heads very easily. So anyone who can help you stay above the fray and have some clarity I think is really helpful.

Cynthia Golden: This is great advice. Great advice. Thank you.

Michael Cato: We really appreciate both of you sharing your perspectives. This was a great conversation. We've covered everything from balancing responsibility with the opportunity, paying attention to the amount of impact and the space we're given to do it and if that changes being the opportunity and the people. I love that point as an important add to this. So often we talked about the power and importance of our larger network supporting us as we're going through those kind of decision making. So thank you so very much to you both for joining us. And to our listeners, thank you as well for being with us today. If you have any suggestions for future guests or topics for the Integrative CIO Podcast, you can send us an email at [email protected]. Thank you all. Until next time.