Five Myths about CIOs in Higher Education

Sarah Buszka: Welcome to the EDUCAUSE Integrative CIO Podcast. I'm your co-host, Sarah Beska. Unfortunately, I'm not joined by our other co-host for the show, Michael Cato and Cynthia Golden. As is in true fashion with being at the EDUCAUSE live annual conference, we're all double booked, triple booked, so they couldn't be here today, but I wanted to mention them as integral parts of this incredible show. So with that, today we are going to be introducing two incredible guests and talking about a topic that I'm very biased and excited to talk about, which is myths about CIOs. But before we get there, I'd love to introduce our two guests for the show. First, Tracy Shin, who is our CIO at the University of California Berkeley. Yes, welcome to the show.

Tracy Shinn: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Sarah Buszka: Wonderful. And next we have Dave Weil. And Dave has a new title and it's long, so I have to read. Yeah. So Dave Weil is a senior vice president for strategic services and initiatives at Ithaca College. It's a mouthful, Dave.

Dave Weil: It is. It is.

Sarah Buszka: How do you do it?

Dave Weil: I don't know. Well, it has a whole bunch of stuff in there too.

Sarah Buszka: It does have a whole bunch of stuff in it. We'll get into that. I would be remiss if I didn't mention Casey Kendall, the new CIO at Ithaca College. And I think that's just a really great way to show how you invest in your leadership in the college. And I'm sure we'll get into more of that too. Yes.

Sarah Buszka: So to set the stage before we dive into this conversation, I want to actually mention the five myths about being a CIO that I hope to be busting today as part of this conversation. So I'm first going to introduce them and then we're going to get into some questions with our guests about what they think about that. So myth number one is CIOs must have a PhD in order to be credible in higher ed. I already saw Tracy shake her head. We will definitely be busting that one. All right, next, myth number two, real CIOs always report directly to the president. I'm kind of looking at you a little, Dave. Not so much. All right. It's Ben.

Tracy Shinn: Real at lots of levels.

Sarah Buszka: Yes, yes. All right. Myth number three, the only valid path to CIO is up through a technical background like infrastructure or operations. We have feelings. All right, myth number four, CIOs are primarily operational and not strategic.

Dave Weil: No.

Sarah Buszka: He has strategy in his title, so we'll definitely be busting that one. And then finally, myth number five, which I think is a great closer for us, is to talk about the CIO role is the destination. And we know with your role, it's not. It's beyond that. All right, so with those five myths introduced, I can't wait to start busting these, so let's just get right into it. Tracy, my first question is for you. And when you think about myth number one and this credibility and needing to have a PhD in order to be a CIO, do people assume that you need a doctorate at your institution to sit at your table? And what actually has earned you the seat in the room?

Tracy Shinn: What they cared about was energy, empathy, ideas, ability to deliver a track record. That's what people cared about. And frankly, the PhD was more, if anything, in some cases for candidates, a concern that they might be too theoretical and not able to just get their hands dirty and get things done. So I've never found that to be an obstacle.

Sarah Buszka: Well, I'm thrilled to hear that you haven't been asked that. However, those other questions, maybe we have a part two of this to unpack that because I don't think we have enough time. Thank you for sharing. What would you say, Dave? Have you ever been asked that question?

Dave Weil: I have not. I think a number of the questions that we're going to be talking about or myths, there is some nuance there for institution type, but even at almost any institution type, I don't think PhD is required at the CIO level. There may be other positions within the IT organization, especially in teaching learning side where it might be advantageous. But at the CIO level, there's such a combination of other skills that I think people look for and leadership. I mean, everything you said and the ability to execute.

Tracy Shinn: Yeah. Although I would add that arguably in one of the other topics that you mentioned about where can the CIO go, I do think the PhD is a factor in where the CIO can go. So a CIO to become a provost or to become a president generally does need that PhD, but a CIO to become a chief operating officer or head of administration, not so much at

Sarah Buszka: All. Not so much. Yeah. Well, you're already jumping ahead and busting myth number five.

Tracy Shinn: Sorry, I can't help myself.

Dave Weil: Yeah, I will.

Sarah Buszka: We'll get there. Thank you. Thank you. So thinking a little bit more about this kind of logic of we need to consume our own product, has there ever been a point where you feel like your credibility has been questioned because you may have not consumed the product and earned that PhD with the tables that you're sitting at?

Dave Weil: I have not experienced that. It's more, again, demonstrating leadership vision, strategic thought, the ability to bring people around to a vision to work together to do that, to be able to ask the technical questions. I think those really help build the credibility as opposed to a academic credential for this particular role.

Sarah Buszka: I want to double click on that actually. So you mentioned skills that are necessary in order to be successful in your role is what I'm hearing. Bringing people together, understanding how the part fits into the whole and helping other people understand that, having good communication skills. Tell me how have you earned those skills? What does that look like? Is that a degree? Is that a credential? How have you got that?

Dave Weil: Well, I got to put the pitch in for EDUCAUSE as part of that. We

Sarah Buszka: Can't ever miss an opportunity to do that.

Dave Weil: But seriously, working and engaging with the community, I do think EDUCAUSE has a lot of great programs to help you think at that level. And there are a number of other programs out there that are helpful. And then some of it is just time in the seat and time in the seats that come before the CIO role and doing that. A lot of people make the stop at the deputy CIO level first. And again, that's where you're gaining some of your street cred there and experiences.

Sarah Buszka: Tracy, where'd you get your street cred?

Tracy Shinn: Project and program management. Absolutely. And actually the launchpad for my start into the CIO world was I had just launched a portal that I had project managed for IT from outside the IT organization. I was not part of the IT organization when I became an acting CIO.

Tracy Shinn: But how did I become visible? I had managed a portal implementation. And I want to go back to a comment you made about consuming the product. A person with a deep technical background is manufacturing the product. Oftentimes they don't necessarily understand how it is consumed. I understand how it's consumed. I'm using the thing in the same way as members of my community, and I actually am pretty rigorous about that in that I will not use a service that I'm not providing. So I think that enables me to better understand where my community's coming from, what their experience is, how they're understanding a service that we're providing or what gaps they might experience. When I need help, I call my service desk and I get help. And if I don't have a great experience, then I get an understanding of what's happening. Absolutely. And if I have a great experience, then I get that piece too.

Sarah Buszka: There you go. Yeah. So thinking a little bit about myth number two, which is the CIO should report to the president, I heard you mention, Tracy, that, "Hey, when I started, I wasn't even in the centralized." So I'm going to stay on you, Tracy, for this. Can you just maybe walk me through your actual reporting line today versus what people assume it is and maybe walk us through how you started not being in IT and then of course where you are now.

Tracy Shinn: Yeah. So today I have a dual reporting relationship. I have reporting lines to the vice chancellor for administration under which also resides, HR, facilities, police, et cetera, and a secondary reporting line to the provost. And that is quite useful and pragmatic, gives me the full scope of the institution. The only challenge for me in that currently is that I don't have a cabinet seat. And while I would say that not reporting to the president or the chancellor at Berkeley is not an issue, and frankly, I don't think I should. I don't think it's the right use of his time. Heck, he has athletics to deal with, but a cabinet seat would be helpful. I am accustomed to that in the past, but I also understand why I'm not there right now. And in my prior two CIO roles, in both of them, I started out reporting to a vice president for planning and budget, and at some point that person left and I ended up transitioning to the president in both places.

Tracy Shinn: But again, I don't expect that to happen at Berkeley and that's okay.

Sarah Buszka: Yeah. And I like the distinction that you're making too with the different institutions, whatever the need might be at the time might drive that kind of structural reporting.

Tracy Shinn: Yeah. As well as the skills and interests of the leadership at that time.

Sarah Buszka: Right, right. All right, Dave, coming over to you. So the myth that we're busting is real CIOs must report to the president. What are your thoughts on that?

Dave Weil: So I currently do report to the president, but it didn't start that way.

Sarah Buszka: It's a common fact. He's a great example.

Dave Weil: Even over the last couple of days at the conference, I'm talking to all these incredible CIOs and it's pretty much you can pick any senior person at an institution and some of these CIOs are reporting there. I know CIOs report to the provost. I know CIOs report to the CFO. CIOs are reporting to the president. CIOs have dotted lines between all those. And so I think it is less about who you actually report to. I do think having some ability to be involved in conversations at the cabinet level, whether it's formal or informal is important, especially as we watch the CIO role evolve to the strategic partner. And so in order to really be a good partner, you have to be involved in those conversations at that level.

Dave Weil: But even when you don't report directly to the cabinet, that's where you put your other skills to work, where you talk about visibility, communication, building those partnerships, and so you can still be effective. At Ithaca, the CIO position started reporting to the CFO, then there was some change and the president decided to elevate it to the president role. And again, I think the biggest change there was then that also added it to the cabinet. There's one other scenario I know of, a CIO reports CFO, but then meets with the president one-on-one once a month, and that way you still have the formal reporting, but you're still plugged in at that level. So really, there is no standard, I guess is what I'm trying to say.

Tracy Shinn: Yeah,

Sarah Buszka: Myth busted.

Tracy Shinn: Sometimes it feels like it's because nobody wants it, but - Yeah, right, right, right. But other times, at some institutions, everybody wants it. So I don't know, it just depends.

Sarah Buszka: Yeah, it just depends. Yeah. And I think what I'm hearing too is you have to be strategic about how you get to those conversations. There might be an issue where you know that needs to go to a cabinet and you know you need to have a presence and an influence there. And then also recognizing that the opposite might be true. To your point, Tracy, I think you said that so well, my president's too busy for this and I recognize that this is the era that we're in because of those priorities.

Dave Weil: So I would say that the takeaway, if someone is looking at a CIO position and it does not report to the president, I wouldn't immediately cross that off the list at all. I would ask deeper questions about how would I be involved in conversations early?

Sarah Buszka: And how would I be effective? Is there a pathway for me there?What does that look like? Would you add another question to ask? I know for a lot of folks who listen to our show, they are current or perspective or hopeful CIOs and maybe they're looking for a position right now. Would you have any advice, Tracy, for someone looking and evaluating a CIO position now and specifically around the reporting structure, if they should be looking for something or not?

Tracy Shinn: I would ask questions around just the why of where does it sit? How did they make that choice? What were their reasons? Is it a different choice than they made with their last CIO? Did they change their minds? Did they change their minds for some particular reason they have some objective that's rooted in the way that they've organized it now? Oftentimes the answer to that is yes and that there's a story there that you should know as a candidate.

Sarah Buszka: Well, you heard it here, folks. Those are the questions you ask.

Dave Weil: Got it. All

Sarah Buszka: Right. So we've sufficiently busted two myths, I would say. We have three more to bust. The next one, and this one is one of my personal favorites, and I sense we'll probably have a great conversation around this, or at least I hope, myth number three, the only valid path to CIO is through a technical background. Do either of you have formal technical backgrounds, Dave?

Dave Weil: I do. I have an undergraduate degree in computer science, sorry, but I have a master's in communications.

Sarah Buszka: There we go.

Dave Weil: Okay. Half busted.

Sarah Buszka: There you

Tracy Shinn: Go. A fair number of people assume that I have a degree in computer science and I just let them assume until it's fun to tell them no. So I have an undergraduate degree in the humanities. I have a master's in writing, as in writing letters, and I have an MBA, but I didn't get the MBA until literally I finished my MBA a year ago, like year and a half. Congratulations. A year and a half ago. So I went about 20 years as a CIO with those first two degrees, just faking everybody out. But all it does is if you have some level of imposter complex, it makes it a little harder. The institutions that hire me didn't hire me to configure their routers. They hired me to align their organization, their IT organization with their strategic objectives, and that I can do.

Sarah Buszka: Without the formal technical background. No,

Tracy Shinn: No. And actually it's a great advantage often as a CIO to be able to ask the stupid question.

Sarah Buszka: Absolutely. And

Tracy Shinn: People will not ask it. I can say a lot of people like to, our Gen Zs and whatever the next generation is, Neo, something, they'll type into the chat bots, talk to me like I'm five. I can do that in a room of technical professionals because I have the positional credibility. I can be stupid and tell me like I'm stupid and it's okay. And oftentimes those simple questions are hard to answer.

Sarah Buszka: They are. Sometimes they're the hardest, right?

Tracy Shinn: Yeah. Whereas if I'm coming at it with, okay, I'm going to pretend like I understand all the code behind that, it's like I understand just enough to be dangerous and ask a hard question.

Sarah Buszka: That's the fun part of the job, I'm assuming.

Dave Weil: Yeah.

Sarah Buszka: What would you add, Dave? I

Dave Weil: Would add that back to something I said earlier, it does depend on the institution type or the institution because there are absolutely some institutions that want an extremely technical CIO. And as I tell people, I'm the right CIO for what Ithaca College needs at this time or what needed in the past. I may not have been the right CIO for university X or college Y that wanted somebody who could come in and really focus on that. I like to say leadership, we lead people. We don't lead technology. We lead the people that implement that technology. And I think that that's really, it's the skill that a CIO has to have.

Sarah Buszka: Yeah, I'm hearing it's the people skills really. So I don't necessarily need this technical background to be effective in my role. But

Dave Weil: You certainly have to understand the implication of technology. You have to, to your point, the questions and be able to, I think, systems thinking and build the connections

Sarah Buszka: Between

Tracy Shinn: Them. And I'm sure you've heard the metaphor of T-shaped people. You do need to be deep somewhere. And for me, I'm deep in project program management and IT service management. If I didn't know anything about IT service management, I think I'd be out of this profession a long time ago. But knowing IT service management, whether I could write the code people tools, that's not going to translate into running an IT organization. So you need to be deep somewhere so that you can empathize with the staff for the jobs that you're asking them to do and that you can analytically transfer conceptual knowledge. I'm not going to write the code behind my identity and access management system, but I sure as heck understand what it does and integration services, et cetera. Conceptually, we have to be able to get our heads around architecture. We have to be deeply analytical.

Tracy Shinn: We have to be able to translate that into human readable documents and slides, et cetera, but we don't need to be able to hit the keys.

Sarah Buszka: Absolutely. This might be a myth 3.5 potentially, dare I add this one. And this is something that I'm hearing from both of you is as a CIO, I don't necessarily need to be technical. I think we've sufficiently busted that myth just given our backgrounds. But also as a CIO, you don't also have to understand how to do every single job in the organization. You are not, to your point, pressing every single button, doing everything at all. That's why you have a team.

Tracy Shinn: Do that, you're going to be ineffective.

Sarah Buszka: Exactly.

Dave Weil: And the team doesn't want us to do that. No, no, no, Dave, step away from the keyboard. Th's okay. Yeah. Yeah, you don't want that. Yeah.

Sarah Buszka: Okay. Well, I'm glad we agree on that one. All right. Myth 3.5 busted. All right, moving on. We have two more to bust. So the next one, and I think we'll have some really great candor around this. We might spend a little bit more time here. Myth number four is CIOs are primarily technical and not strategic. I saw your eyebrows raised, Tracy. I can see this is irking you. So maybe my question maybe will be for you, Tracy, first, just to kick us off. Can you just give me a recent example of where you were in a room for a decision that had nothing to do with technology on the surface, but everything to do with it underneath and specifically with respect to the strategy about how you're applying it at your institution?

Tracy Shinn: Okay. So I was on a call sitting on the floor in the hallway just about two hours ago with my vice chancellor for research about a task force that I'm on that's about the organizational structure of support for HR and research administration, and then an adjacent task force that's about the future of research administration. And we are talking about the vision statement and the need for a clearer north star for that. And we're not talking about the technology at all yet. And frankly, in that organizational discussion, I'm also trying to make clear that we need to look at where the systems people are within some of these existing organizations and how might we think about that? What are the necessary conditions for success if we think we need to have common processes and tools? What does that mean? What does that look like? My next meeting after this one is on that task force.

Tracy Shinn: I am not talking about systems in that meeting. I'm talking about organization, goals, strategy.

Sarah Buszka: All where program management comes into play. Yeah, absolutely. What about you, Dave?

Dave Weil: I think a lot of our conversations are around architecture, and I mean that in a broad sense, not necessarily just technical architecture. So what are the people that we need? What are the policies that we need? What are the data that we need and the technology? And so how do those components fit together? And I think that's an important part. And then you have people that are specialized in those different areas and can do that. So I think that's a lot of the conversations that we have. And I do want to also emphasize data because I think increasingly how our data flows through our institution and how we organize around data is what really empowers us towards the future. And so we have to make sure we're focused on that as well.

Sarah Buszka: I'm going to double click on that. I'm so glad you went there because you already know what I'm going to bring up. I'm going to bring up AI. Ooh, here we go. So we would be remiss if we didn't talk about it obviously at this conference, but I'm curious to hear from you, Dave, just to stay on you for this. How has AI shifted these conversations strategically from being an IT problem, I think probably we're used to seeing and being considered, to now being more of this kind of institutional strategy challenge or problem?

Dave Weil: Well, there's absolutely a technical piece to it, but I see a lot of my role is to elevate the conversation to say, okay, you say AI and Tracy, you say AI, are you talking about the same thing? Because there's this whole range of AI, so we have to figure out what are we talking about? And then we have to think about, well, how are we applying that and then what goes into that? So I think AI is really putting all of our skills to work as a CIO. We have to be collaborative. We have to understand the governance. We have to understand the implications of this. What are the needs from the various users there? We have to understand the technology, and I think it all sort of comes together. It's a great example of the CIO being the strategic partner and helping to guide the conversations as opposed to say, oh, here's technical solution, this is what you want to implement.

Sarah Buszka: We're not only thinking about capability, we're thinking about capability in the broader lens at the institution and the pedagogy aspect and what work has to change in order for this to be effective and for us to be strategic in how we're implementing this. Tracy, what would you add? How has AI shifted things from being an IT problem to more of an institutional strategy type problem?

Tracy Shinn: Well, AI is so complicated at a place like Berkeley where we're both inventing it on the research side and talking about infrastructure to enable that invention and application to domain science, as well as looking at various layers of adoption, be it in teaching and learning or in operations. And the thinking about it is so diverse amongst the faculty especially, and even students, that it's so clear. I think it's so abundantly clear that it's not an IT problem other than access to tools is an IT problem and saying, all right, you all need to go get the tools in a timely manner and get us the best tools you can as quickly as you can and have the appropriate controls and terms and conditions and all those things. But how they are used and our strategy around them is so much a broader discussion that while I might convene it or convene an advisory council around it, it's a convening, it's not positionally dictating at all.

Tracy Shinn: And I would do so at my peril, but you've got to bring a lot of humility to these discussions in an institution where people are actively both creating, controlling, dialoguing, shaping policy, all of the above. It's just so much bigger than IT.

Sarah Buszka: Absolutely.

Dave Weil: And understanding, I think one of the things that makes a successful CIO is you also understand the institutional culture and what's the best approach for that institution at this time. And that also goes along with the AI conversation. And I think AI use needs to align with the institution's values, which is slightly different than culture, but they're all related there.

Sarah Buszka: Very, very much so. Yeah. I would say, I think we've sufficiently busted this myth that CIOs are only technical and not strategic because we've been talking a lot about the cultural aspects. What are our values? How do we align to that? How do we talk about that? How do we engage with that? That's bringing your communications background into play here. That's bringing your program management background. So I'm saying this and repeating it for our listeners because I think that really is a myth that many folks hear and perpetuate that you have to be technical in order to be successful in these roles. And you've just heard it here, folks. It's just not true. That doesn't mean you be ignorant, you have to be conversant, but it's more than that.

Tracy Shinn: There's a big difference between being knowledgeable and conversant and strategic and being a day-to-day doer.

Sarah Buszka: Absolutely.

Sarah Buszka: Right. Moving on to the next and final myth, and I think we probably will stay here for a little while too, just because I think we have a great launchpad with you, Dave, with your recent career transition as well. But the final myth is the CIO role is the destination. Everything I'm doing, my entire goal in my technology career is just to become the CIO and then I'm done. Then I can just coast. So I love the reactions I'm seeing from both of you as I'm bringing these myths up because I think that they couldn't be further from the truth. But I'm kind of maybe curious to start with you, Dave, obviously going through this recent change of being a CIO at Ithaca College now taking on a much broader role. How do you feel about that?

Dave Weil: I think it's an acknowledgement of how things are shifting. And so my portfolio as the senior vice president for strategic services is IT, analytics, AI, human resources, and marketing communication. And they are all services that really help advance the institution. And so one of the connecting threads there is data and how the data's there. So a few years ago we merged our analytics and our IT organizations, and this is sort of pre-AI, the current version of AI that we're on. And doing that really set the foundation though to use data and analytics as a strategic asset, and it allowed us to then rapidly do some great things with some AI tools. But having the broader portfolio is still, it's more resources to help the institution approach problems strategically. And also it's really interesting now, my senior team is the chief information officer, the chief HR officer, and then our marcom senior team there.

Dave Weil: And the conversations at the table are really interesting because you're getting different perspectives that come to the problems at hand, and it's very powerful actually.

Sarah Buszka: Yeah. Did you ever think you would be in a role like this? Think about five years.

Dave Weil: I never really thought HR would report to me, but it is about the people. And again, like we were just talking about the technology, I'm not the HR expert. I have a chief HR officer who is, and now we have the chief information officer. But I think the overall point here, and Tracy, you were saying it as well, that it's really, we're leaders and we're leaders that are bringing together different tools to solve the institution or to help the institution solve problems. And effective leaders, the more tools that we have, I think the more we can help our institution.

Sarah Buszka: Absolutely. Yeah. Tracy, I'm curious from your lens, obviously serving as a CIO right now, having other experiences in that role, where do you see your career trajectory going from here? Are you thinking I'm going to stay in a CIO type role? Are you seeing it evolve into something else? How is that role looking to you right now compared to how it's been? And as you look forward into the future, given all the changes that we've been talking about today and at this conference, where do you see your current trajectory heading?

Tracy Shinn: Okay. Well, so first I guess I want to say if folks are concerned that the CIO role is a destination or a dead end, it's a pretty darn good one.

Dave Weil: Yes, I agree.

Tracy Shinn: It's impactful. It's important. It matters. And if that is what we do for however long we have the stamina to do so, we're making an important contribution to our institutions, to education, and to the world. So I don't think that that is a problem. But that said, I mean, I have some experience of growing in the position, expanding, as Dave mentioned, into the data area, going from CIO to CIO plus CDO type role. That's clearly a pathway that's there. It's possible to think about a COO or administration broader services. I mean, at the end of the day, I'm a services leader and that could be a direction for me. I have some colleagues though who've had that opportunity, some who took it, some who said, no, I don't really want that. I feel that they felt impactful in the role that they're in. Right now for me personally, I'm just enjoying the richness of the role that I'm in at Berkeley.

Tracy Shinn: It's enough. It's enough. And I'm not looking to become -

Sarah Buszka: SVP of strategic initiatives and reading HR and all the things at Davis. No,

Tracy Shinn: No. Maybe in a smaller place that might be of interest. But right now I feel like the best contribution I can make is to really be part of success at Berkeley in the role that I'm in.

Sarah Buszka: Absolutely.

Dave Weil: I think

Dave Weil: It's, did I aspire to this? No. Does it make sense given the skills that I bring and the needs at the institution at this time and the other senior leaders of the institution? Does this portfolio make sense? Yes. Is this portfolio going to be the exactly the same thing two years from now? Probably not. It's just because things evolve and change there. And I think, again, some of the core skills of how we lead, how we think strategically, I think that's really what we should be focusing on. And then the specific portfolio or alignments, there's some that I would advocate for. I think data or the analytics and the IT, I do feel very strongly that I think that there needs to be a connection there. Do you need HR or marketing communication in that same portfolio to be successful? Not necessarily. HR is interesting because as we talked for years about digital transformation, I think we're transitioning into institutional transformation and that really involves the people.

Dave Weil: And so having HR along with the people that understand process analysis and the technology tools in the same overall org is interesting and I think can lead to some powerful ways to help the institution.

Tracy Shinn: Absolutely. I would add just one more thing is that there are pathways for CIOs outside of institutions, be it in agencies, in the government, in NSF, NIH, et cetera. There are pathways even in other government agencies. I had one colleague who went into the water district in a county. There's also industry pathways. In one of the many companies that are in the exhibit hall down there, had several colleagues go to work for one or more of those providers. There are lots of different pathways. They don't have to necessarily be vertical upward. They could be outward.

Sarah Buszka: Absolutely. Well, let me actually ask you this question, Dade, too, because I think Tracy just sufficiently busted the myth of the CIO role being a dead end because you can do that in other verticals. What would you say to that? If we have listeners on the show who are, again, current perspective, aspiring CIOs, what would you say to them if they're being told that the CIO role is a dead end?

Dave Weil: The CIO career is over thing. Make of it what you want to make of it. CIO role is an incredible role and it's so powerful in terms of the ability to transform our institutions. I don't view it as a dead end at all.

Sarah Buszka: Yeah. Would you say anything? Add anything, Tracy? You've already given some great advice.

Tracy Shinn: I don't know. I just think if you think it's a dead end, it's probably not for you.

Sarah Buszka: Yeah,

Dave Weil: No, I agree.

Tracy Shinn: Very

Sarah Buszka: True. Very true.

Tracy Shinn: You need to be looking at the difference you can make from that seat. And if you're not excited about that -

Sarah Buszka: Don't do it.

Tracy Shinn: Look elsewhere.

Dave Weil: Yeah.

Sarah Buszka: Absolutely. That's true for many of our roles, right?

Tracy Shinn: Yeah. There's a lot of good to be done from the CIO seat.

Sarah Buszka: There is, yeah. All right, so we've sufficiently busted five myths, I will confidently add. So to wrap up this conversation, and this is going to be more of a rapid fire question for each of you to answer in a minute or less. I'll start with you, Tracy. So if you had to think about all the myths and the things that we've talked about today, maybe that we even haven't talked about, what is the biggest myth about your job that you wish would just disappear?

Tracy Shinn: That the CIO decides.

Sarah Buszka: Less than one sentence. There we go. Yeah. Do you want to expand on that just a little bit more?

Tracy Shinn: Yeah. The CIO facilitates decision. The CIO advises, lifts up, promotes, informs, but actually decides at their peril. The CIO sets up structures for decision making, empowers people to make decisions and may ultimately pay. But if the CIO is independently deciding, generally we're getting into acts of hubris that will backfire on us eventually.

Sarah Buszka: Great. Thank you. Dave, what about you? I know you're obviously not in a CI role now, so you can either answer from the CIO role lens or your current or both.

Dave Weil: I would say that the CIO can fix the projector when it's not working and you're in the meeting. I definitely think that's... Dave, it's like no, but I know who to call and I have the team that can do that. And I think actually you could take that though and expand upon it. And it's that, as you were saying, we don't solve all the technical problems, but we can bring the people together who can and we can help think about things systematically as to where we need to go. So it's really, we're solutions providers.

Sarah Buszka: Absolutely. Well, thank you folks. We sufficiently busted five minutes and 45 minutes. Right on time. Thank you both so much for sharing your perspectives today. I think this is a really wonderful conversation. I'm sure our listeners will really appreciate it as well. And thank you to our live audience also for joining us today. This has been so wonderful. We really appreciate having your engagement here as well. We love hearing feedback at EDUCAUSE and also on this show. So if anyone would like to reach out to us and offer some feedback or even some suggestions, please email us at [email protected] and we will respond to your message. Thanks so much and we're looking forward to seeing you next time. Have a good one.

Tracy Shinn: Thank you.